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imp
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2021 11:21 am    Post subject: Does it exist a Shinshukan Shorin-Ryu Karate-Do school? Reply with quote

I'm looking for a school to return to Karate-Do. I have practiced karate years ago in Shotokan. I have found a school in my small city named Shinshukan Shorin Ryu Karate-Do (https://shinshukan.com.br), it claims a lineage from Peichin Takahara to Masahiro Shinzato (https://shinshukan.com.br/site/genealogia-karate/).

It's history is about Yoshihide Shinzato, that came to Brazil after war and founded a Karate-Do School. (https://shinshukan.com.br/site/karate-do/).

This local school is lead by a sensei that learned from Yoshihide and it's son Masahiro.

Anyone heard about this school? I could not find anything in the forum or internet at all except the page from school itself.
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Zaine
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Styles: Matsumura-Seito, Shobayashi-Ryu, Shudokan, Long Fist, American Street Karate, Southern Mantis, HEMA

PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2021 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Welcome to KarateForums!

I have not heard about it, and it seems like a long shot asking this forum in particular. That said, if you're interested in it you should see if they have trial classes. A lot of schools offer an opportunity to take a few classes for free to see if it's for you.
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Wastelander
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Styles: Shorin-Ryu, Shuri-Ryu, Judo, KishimotoDi

PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2021 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I would say it exists, because you found it and it has a website. If you're asking whether it is "legitimate," I'm afraid I can't say much about that except that Shinzato apparently trained with Tokuda and Chibana, so he should have learned fairly solid karate. You'll have to see if you like the training, though--that's more important than the historical aspects!
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imp
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2021 10:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wastelander wrote:
Well, I would say it exists, because you found it and it has a website. If you're asking whether it is "legitimate," I'm afraid I can't say much about that except that Shinzato apparently trained with Tokuda and Chibana, so he should have learned fairly solid karate.


Yes. I'm mostly checking if is a legitimate school. The problem with "fake" schools appears just after 2 or more years of commitment. Before that not much can be noticed.

Is there any way to check if Shinzato has trained with Tokuda and Chibana. In Brazil we have a lot of problems with fake schools.

In Chibana page inside Shinshukan website (https://shinshukan.com.br/site/choshin-chibana/ ) we can read the following

Mestre Chibana teve mais de 5000 alunos e entre eles o Mestre Katsuya Miyahira que foi seu auxiliar e Mestre Yoshihide Shinzato (10º Dan), este considerado o mais importante Mestre fora de Okinawa, fundador da União Shorin-Ryu Karate-Do do Brasil e da International Union Shorin-Ryu Karate-Do Federation, entidade que é formada pelas mais importantes federações do estilo Shorin-Ryu do mundo todo.

Freely translated by me:

Master Chibana had more than 5000 students and among them Master Katsuya Miyahira that was your auxiliar and Master Yoshihide Shinzato (10 dan), the latter considered the most importante master outside Okinawa, founder of Brazilian Shorin-Ryu Karate-Do Union and International Union Shorin-Ryu Karate-Do federation, institution formed by the most important federations of Shorin-Ryu style around the world.

I could not find any reference to this International Union Shorin-Ryu Karate-Do Federation, except from websites in portuguese, that could be only echoes of the original Shinshukan website by it's own students.

I would go further the portuguese wikipedia article Chosin Chibana (https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choshin_Chibana) makes reference to Yoshihide Shinzato. While the most complete article in english (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ch%C5%8Dshin_Chibana), makes no such reference. It looks like the portuguese version was crafted only to endorse what is on brazilian websites.

In the page about Yoshihide Shinzato (https://shinshukan.com.br/site/yoshihide-shinzato/), it list some titles, among them there are: 8th dan World Karate Federation, 9th dan Kobudo Shin-Shu-Kan, 10th dan Okinawa Shorin-Ryu Karate-Do, 10th dan Karate-Do Hanshi and Kobu-do Hanshi. The Shorin-Ryu wikipedia article (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sh%C5%8Drin-ry%C5%AB) do not list Shinshukan as a legitimate school. By any chance, any of those institutions provides a way to see all granted degrees, specialy the very high ones as 8th, 9th and 10th dan and Hanshi title? Is there any way to verify those informations?

I had my share of problems with those kind of school. When reaching high degrees you start to notice the lack of consistency in techniques, also you become isolated, and, if for some reason, you need to change schools, your degree isn't recognized anywhere else.


Wastelander wrote:
You'll have to see if you like the training, though--that's more important than the historical aspects!


I have to slightly disagree with you on that. Martial arts has lost it's combative usability in modern days. It's mostly for health and tradition. For health I can pretty much run in a mill and that would be ok. By ignoring the historical side we are losing (roughly) 50% of what a martial art can offer.
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Wastelander
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2021 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

imp wrote:
Wastelander wrote:
Well, I would say it exists, because you found it and it has a website. If you're asking whether it is "legitimate," I'm afraid I can't say much about that except that Shinzato apparently trained with Tokuda and Chibana, so he should have learned fairly solid karate.


Yes. I'm mostly checking if is a legitimate school. The problem with "fake" schools appears just after 2 or more years of commitment. Before that not much can be noticed.

Is there any way to check if Shinzato has trained with Tokuda and Chibana. In Brazil we have a lot of problems with fake schools.

In Chibana page inside Shinshukan website (https://shinshukan.com.br/site/choshin-chibana/ ) we can read the following

Mestre Chibana teve mais de 5000 alunos e entre eles o Mestre Katsuya Miyahira que foi seu auxiliar e Mestre Yoshihide Shinzato (10º Dan), este considerado o mais importante Mestre fora de Okinawa, fundador da União Shorin-Ryu Karate-Do do Brasil e da International Union Shorin-Ryu Karate-Do Federation, entidade que é formada pelas mais importantes federações do estilo Shorin-Ryu do mundo todo.

Freely translated by me:

Master Chibana had more than 5000 students and among them Master Katsuya Miyahira that was your auxiliar and Master Yoshihide Shinzato (10 dan), the latter considered the most importante master outside Okinawa, founder of Brazilian Shorin-Ryu Karate-Do Union and International Union Shorin-Ryu Karate-Do federation, institution formed by the most important federations of Shorin-Ryu style around the world.

I could not find any reference to this International Union Shorin-Ryu Karate-Do Federation, except from websites in portuguese, that could be only echoes of the original Shinshukan website by it's own students.

I would go further the portuguese wikipedia article Chosin Chibana (https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choshin_Chibana) makes reference to Yoshihide Shinzato. While the most complete article in english (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ch%C5%8Dshin_Chibana), makes no such reference. It looks like the portuguese version was crafted only to endorse what is on brazilian websites.

In the page about Yoshihide Shinzato (https://shinshukan.com.br/site/yoshihide-shinzato/), it list some titles, among them there are: 8th dan World Karate Federation, 9th dan Kobudo Shin-Shu-Kan, 10th dan Okinawa Shorin-Ryu Karate-Do, 10th dan Karate-Do Hanshi and Kobu-do Hanshi. The Shorin-Ryu wikipedia article (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sh%C5%8Drin-ry%C5%AB) do not list Shinshukan as a legitimate school. By any chance, any of those institutions provides a way to see all granted degrees, specialy the very high ones as 8th, 9th and 10th dan and Hanshi title? Is there any way to verify those informations?

I had my share of problems with those kind of school. When reaching high degrees you start to notice the lack of consistency in techniques, also you become isolated, and, if for some reason, you need to change schools, your degree isn't recognized anywhere else.


You could probably contact the WKF, as they are a large organization, but I would argue that being ranked by the WKF means little to nothing in terms of legitimacy, beyond the fact that they are willing to follow the WKF's guidelines for competition. I could take a look at my books at home, sometime, and see if he's listed as a student of Chibana anywhere in them, but just because he isn't listed somewhere doesn't mean he wasn't. That said, he most definitely wasn't one of Chibana's senior students--Miyahira Katsuya, Nakazato Shugoro, and Nakama Chozo generally being considered to be the inheritors of his system. With that in mind, his 10th dan ranking certainly didn't come from Chibana, although that doesn't make it illegitimate, either, as a great many legitimate Okinawan instructors have been promoted to 9th and 10th dan after their instructor's passing by vote of their contemporaries, or an overseeing organization of some kind.

imp wrote:
Wastelander wrote:
You'll have to see if you like the training, though--that's more important than the historical aspects!


I have to slightly disagree with you on that. Martial arts has lost it's combative usability in modern days. It's mostly for health and tradition. For health I can pretty much run in a mill and that would be ok. By ignoring the historical side we are losing (roughly) 50% of what a martial art can offer.


I get what you're saying here, and you're not wrong, but my point was more that you are unlikely to train there for any length of time if you don't like the way they train, and it doesn't line up with your goals, regardless of its history.
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imp
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2021 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wastelander wrote:
I could take a look at my books at home, sometime, and see if he's listed as a student of Chibana anywhere in them, but just because he isn't listed somewhere doesn't mean he wasn't.


I do not put any doubts that he trained with Chibana, my question is, for how long. He was granted the right to teach from Chibana or it was just post war karate student far from home trying to make a living. You can build a new "tradition" from that.

My point is to know how well tied are the bonds from Shinshukan school and Shorin-Ryu.

Just a resume about myself, I'm Aikido sandan of a "ronin" aikido school. Have practiced for more than 15 years. I just figured this when reaching my shodan. Some bad stuff happened in my old school, for example, my old sensei was very resistant to give shodan degrees because that would "free" us to practice everywhere and discover all bad ties. During all time, he claimed to have connections and affiliation with Japan Hombu Dojo, but in fact our degrees were not recognized. Even worse, with internet and all modern stuff, we could find out that many techniques were wrong. Do not take me wrong, it was not bad Aikido, it was a very good one. But the "tradition" was lost.

I still practiced in this school for many years after shodan, and I started to noticed the lack of consistency in techniques and katas. Then I discovered that my former sensei just reached the shodan level and in fact he do not know the katas after that (and that explains a lot why he was so eager about giving grades). Everything else after shodan he learned from old video tapes, and later from internet videos.

My concern is that I just do not want go throught the same again. I'm getting old =)

Thank you for your time. I will wait for you to check the book references.

Meanwhile I will try contact WKF and keep researching.

Thanks one more time.
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Wastelander
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2021 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks like Shinzato Masahiro is listed as a legitimate 9th Dan in my Okinawan Shorin-Ryu Karate-Do Association book, although it looks like his lineage is tied to Miyahira, rather than directly through his father to Chibana. Still, Miyahira taught solid Shorin-Ryu.


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imp
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2021 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you very much. I will check out this school. Hope I enjoy.
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