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BeefcaketheBarber
White Belt
White Belt

Joined: 21 Dec 2020
Posts: 8

Styles: Shorin Ryu, kickboxing

PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2021 7:20 pm    Post subject: does Karate deserve to be recognized as a important part of Reply with quote

would u acknowledge that Karate deserves to be mentioned as a vital part of MMA like MT and boxing?
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Bulltahr
Brown Belt
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Joined: 08 Mar 2015
Posts: 719
Location: NEW ZEALAND
Styles: Shotokan, Seido Juku

PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Absolutely! Many, many people started thier MA journey with Karate, some stayed with it, some moved on, but certainly in the 70's and 80's it was the go to for many people. Boxing and karate were the most "mainstream" MAs for thousands of people. I would imagine that Karate along with TKD are still popular starting points for people interested in MA....
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Wado Heretic
Green Belt
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Joined: 23 May 2014
Posts: 475
Location: United Kingdom, England, Shropshire
Styles: Wado-Ryu , Kobayashi Shorin-Ryu (Kodokan), RyuKyu Kobojutsu

PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frankly, no, but that is because I subscribe to a philosophy of sport specific training. You should not train in “styles” if you intend to become a competent Free-Fighter under modern Mixed Martial Arts rules: you do training that fits the sport.

With that said, the likes of Lyoto Machida and Stephen Thompson have taken their karate background as a tool to reach the elite levels. In the case of Lyota Machida a championship level. To paraphrase Vinicio Antony, Lyoto Machida’s coach, the advantage of his karate was it allowed him to dictate the way the fight is fought. If he turns the standing phase into a karate fight, then Lyoto has all the experience and elite level ability to win said karate fight: if he fights like a kickboxer against someone that knows kickboxing then it comes down to who is the better kickboxer. There are a lot of great kickboxers in the elite levels of MMA.

Thus, for those with a karate background who want to excel they should use their karate as a foundation to direct the fight as they want. This is what has made a number of those with karate back-grounds effective in MMA. One can argue this is how Chuck Liddell overcame Wanderlei Silva in their incredibly competitive bout. By using a more bladed stance, and fighting from the outside, and moving back and forth often made himself a difficult opponent for more traditional boxers and kickboxers. Even if Chuck Liddell is not a classic karateka, you can see the influence of his karate competition back-ground in how he moved and set up punches.

Outside those examples of making your background in karate work in MMA as a part of your strategy to confound others, and play up your strengths, little in the world of karate translates to the sport specific training you need to do to be competitive in MMA. In traditional karate, we learn to punch and kick from a worst-case scenario perspective for the sake of self-defence. Non-telegraphed movement is important to disguise intent in self-defence because of how conflict begins in civilian contexts. Whereas in a striking sport, knowing when and how to load up for effect is essential. Our kata and their movements are about self-defence, not combat sports involving sophisticated martial arts – the tactics, if not techniques, of both are profoundly different. For those that train for the sports that have emerged from karate: it is either to perform kata well, engage in a form of tag, or bare-knuckle kickboxing. You can take shobu kumite skills as a foundation to training for MMA, but you need to strongly adapt them, and then add on wrestling and submission fighting training. Frankly, I would even have to strongly argue Muay Thai is a better striking skill set than Knock-Down Karate for a transition to MMA.
With that said, I think most fighters and fight coaches know the way to train smart is to train for MMA. Learn to strike for MMA, learn to grapple for MMA. Training in Boxing or Kickboxing will make you good at those sports. Training in jujutsu will make you good at grappling. The reality is taking from those sources of knowledge what is relevant to the sport you are trying to be good at, and training based on relevant knowledge. From that perspective I would argue Boxing and Muay Thai are not essential or vital parts of MMA: knowing how to strike to be competitive in the stand-up is vital.

Speaking to the history though, is a different matter than current perspective, and Boxing and Muay Thai were part of the backgrounds of many early successful fighters who came to the sport with well-rounded skill sets. Those skill sets came to be the foundation of MMA striking, in the same way Brazilian Jujutsu came to define the ground game and wrestling the clinch and shooting aspects of the stand-up phase. However, each of those skill sets has evolved their own MMA variation divisible, if closely related, from their point of origin.

Similarly, karate had a dubious start in the History of MMA. Many early fighters had a karate background, and on paper were credible fighters from their various competitive histories. However, they ended being ineffective in stopping Royce Gracie, and were also remarkably ineffectual and inefficient against each other. Primarily because they had not trained for the sport they now found themselves in: Vale Tudo. They did not know several essential components of free-fighting, and came up against someone that did, and had plenty of experience in it.

It is only years later, as sport specific training has become normalised, and people have brought applicable skills from karate to the cage, have we really seen karate earn back its reputation to an extent. It has been long dismissed as a skill set, and the sport of MMA is no longer a field of different exponents competing against each other, but well-rounded athletes engaging in sport specific training. There are skills from competitive karate that can be used in MMA but it is not fundamental, no.
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SLK59
Yellow Belt
Yellow Belt

Joined: 05 Nov 2020
Posts: 88
Location: USA
Styles: Shotokan Karate

PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2021 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From my personal perspective, karate and MMA are as different from one another as is judo from Greco-Roman wrestling, or kendo from western fencing. Apples and oranges, different strokes for different folks.


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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
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Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 28793
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2021 12:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wado Heretic, that is a great explanation.
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Wamp
Yellow Belt
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Joined: 29 Oct 2020
Posts: 40
Location: Japan
Styles: Ashihara Karate, Marine Corps Martial Arts Program (MCMAP)

PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2021 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All great response here. Living and training in Japan, I can honestly say I think Karate is more of a lifestyle and overall physical fitness program vice the competitive sport side that MMA has. I’m 34 and I am the second youngest man in the dojo here. All other members of my dojo are in their 50s and we recently got a new student that is 65. He joined so he could, in his words as he rubbed his pot belly, “stay in shape.” I have never been a member of a MMA gym, so my assessment could be wrong, but they seem to be more interested in proving their skills in the ring. I think it really boils down to culture and why you train. If you want to be good at MMA, MMA is what you should train. If your more of a traditionalist, want balance in your life, physical fitness, self defense, and build some good friendships, look no further than the Karate dojo!
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
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Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 28793
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 2:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wamp wrote:
All great response here. Living and training in Japan, I can honestly say I think Karate is more of a lifestyle and overall physical fitness program vice the competitive sport side that MMA has. I’m 34 and I am the second youngest man in the dojo here. All other members of my dojo are in their 50s and we recently got a new student that is 65. He joined so he could, in his words as he rubbed his pot belly, “stay in shape.” I have never been a member of a MMA gym, so my assessment could be wrong, but they seem to be more interested in proving their skills in the ring. I think it really boils down to culture and why you train. If you want to be good at MMA, MMA is what you should train. If your more of a traditionalist, want balance in your life, physical fitness, self defense, and build some good friendships, look no further than the Karate dojo!
You make some good points, for sure, especially in regards to the focus of training. However, in some places, a local Karate or other Martial Arts program may be one's only exposure to the world of structured MA training. And if one desires to be a fighter someday, having a place to start is very beneficial. Learning to adapt things would have to come along the way.

It does sound like you have quite an interesting culture at your dojo. It would be refreshing to see an older crowd like that, I think. We have a decidedly younger crowd that attends out dojang right now. I hope after all the craziness in the world is over, we start to swell our ranks with more teenage and adult trainees.
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Wamp
Yellow Belt
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Joined: 29 Oct 2020
Posts: 40
Location: Japan
Styles: Ashihara Karate, Marine Corps Martial Arts Program (MCMAP)

PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 5:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

However, in some places, a local Karate or other Martial Arts program may be one's only exposure to the world of structured MA training. And if one desires to be a fighter someday, having a place to start is very beneficial. Learning to adapt things would have to come along the way.

Very true point, and there are a lot of MMA guys out there that have strong strikes that came from their Karate or TKD background.
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Wamp
Yellow Belt
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Joined: 29 Oct 2020
Posts: 40
Location: Japan
Styles: Ashihara Karate, Marine Corps Martial Arts Program (MCMAP)

PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 5:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry my first paragraph in my last post was quoting Bushido_man96 but I’m still new to forms and wasn’t sure how to quote.
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sensei8
KF Sensei
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Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 15326
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Karate, imho, doesn't need to be recognized by MMA and/or the like. Neither Karate or MMA need recognition from either because neither are subjected to one another. In short, recognize or don't recognize Karate; in their own rights, they are complete in their totality, it's the practitioner that needs the recognition overall.

Once again, Imho.



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