Does Martial Arts really help?

The BB of C · Black Belt

The techniques that some people refer to as "flashy" are just as effective if taught properly. The only difference between a normal technique and a "flashy" technique is that when a flashy technique is done; it's faster than heck, makes a clean connection, visually effects the opponent, and might make a sound when it strikes the target. So basically it's just a matter of outside-looking-in perception.
Shoot, if that's the case then I could make the simplest punch to the face look "flashy." Doesn't mean it wasn't effective. It just means that it was done correctly and frankly it looked good because of it.

tallgeese · Black Belt

The problem I have with flasy movements are a couple:

First off, regardless of the quality of instruction, they are time consuming to learn and adaquately prepare to use insitinctily. This slows down your preperation for conflict and eats up time you could use to make your game more well rounded.

Next, they are often tricky to preform and any variation in enviornment might make them catastrophic in practicality. Ice, rain, ect. This is true of everything, but the complex a movement, the more likely it is that conditions will have an effect on it.

Third, they clearly scream ma-ist. That means guy number 2 is more likley to grab a weapon. Plus the recovery time involved make you less able to respond to threat 2. That's a bad combination.

Lastly, it's harder to scale them to proper use of force levels that other movements. Once you send that spinning kick flying, it's deadly force if it's at the head. It's hard to adapt it to multiple scenarios.

Just my feelings, I see them a showy but for demo puropses. Therefore, I don't spend my time working them. If I demo somehting, it will be something I use, not a show movement.

The BB of C · Black Belt

Perhaps. But I've always seen it as it wouldn't still be there if it really was inneffective. That, and it's time consuming to get good at any kind of technique. Thirdly, I stated that anything could look flashy. Even the most basic punches and kicks. Flashy is all about preception.
If a fight starts and right off the bat you slam your opponent's head three times and then slam on his 10th rib four times and he suddenly drops unconsious, to someone on the outside it might seem flashy. When it really wasn't. It was just done correctly and it ended the fight.

That aside, you're not supposed to just train the technique. You're also supposed to train your timing, your speed, everything. And actually come to terms with the fact that it's time consuming but that's how people get good.
Every technique I've ever learned I've put to use SOMEWHERE at least once. Every kick, every punch, every hip throw, wrist throw, pressure point, submission, joint lock, everything.
Then when I can, I get my training buddies together and we drill these, and fight to make them better. We're usually out in some park or wilderness for several hours doing that. Then we come back battered, bleeding and bruised. But that's what martial arts are really about and that's how we got to where we are as far as fighting ability and we all know that we still have a long way to go.

You also have to keep in mind that a lot of martial arts were developed in war times. Which simply says that the melee techniques have litterally been battle tested. Different styles may have done it differently. Some styles have several techniques for every imagineable situation and then in order to apply them to modern day you tweak them a little bit (if they need to be) and other martial arts have only a few techniques but there are drills in the style that show you how to apply them to almost everything.

Also we must keep in mind that it always comes down to who has more power and that there is no perfect technique (because there's no perfect art/artist/person).
I made a list of at least one hundred physical, mental and spiritual factors that effect the outcome a fight. Then I get in a fight with someone with no martial arts experience. He simply has most of those stats higher than mine with the exception of a few, he's going to beat me. I've come to peace with that.

On a more personal note, I know that if I cut a technique from my library just for the reason that it's difficult to do, I will inhibit myself.
My spinning kicks are a good example. I use them. I've made them work and other times I've taken mean counters. But every week at sparring I use them perfectly at least twice and when I'm going against people who won't let me use them, I lose horribly because I see places where I would use that technique and simply don't know what to do.
When the person is too far away for a punch but still moving closer with an attack chambered, or if I'm trying to keep someone from coming closer, my instincts say spin kick. Then the spin kick happens. If I'm sparring anyone except for the two head instructors of that class, I either hit them with that technique or they back off and give me a chance to use a follow-through counter. Sometimes I even hit the two head instructors with it.
Usually at this point I get "If the opponent is big and charging at full speed you'll get knocked over." I know that and I've prepared for it. It's not fashionable to do this in sparring class, but when I'm being charged by my training buddies who are body builders during our full-force-fighting sessions and my instincts say spin kick. I simply drop down, put my planted leg's knee to the ground and then do the spin kick. It turns into a sweep kick. My heel or instep slams their achielles tendon, their legs come out from under them, depending on how much momentum was going forward they might fly a couple of feet, they take damage from slamming on the ground and now I have them right where they're needed. Simple things like that make a huge difference. Some people will still say it's a flashy technique. But I just made it work and I still say to them that flashy is a matter of preception.

Examples of Flasy Techniques:
Example
Example
Example
Examples
Example

As you can see. Some of them are high level and very difficult kicks and punches. Others are very basic but done with power and timing.

tallgeese · Black Belt

Some of those ko's are impressive. But would you really be willing to bet your life, on the street, to a movement where you turned your back voulutarily to an attacker when you were unsure of his skill level or intent? I wouldn't.

Also, some of those movments haven't stayed in because they are battlefield effective, but because they are favored for whatever reason by the instructors who teach them. Also, not all arts are acutally rooted in combat. Many were designed in the modern era for varios purposes not realted to killing people. Even more were modified heavily at the turn of the century to appeal to more people.

I'm not saying people shouldn't practice this kind of stuff. I'm just saying it's not necissarly the most efficent way to pass your time if you're really look to upgrade your cahnces of successfully defending yourself.

joesteph · Black Belt

The examples links you gave, BB of C, all took place in tournaments or professional bouts. Looking back over the thread, the concern has been in real-life situations. No referees, no rules, no large area to maneuver about. Of course, no one expects you to produce footage of an actual street fight; in our postings we explain what we've encountered "on the street," as Jeet Kune Do and 50inches have related.

You've expresed that you can make a hook punch flashy, but I'd simply call it well-executed. I wouldn't call a punch flashy, any more than I would call a front kick flashy. When you refer to multiple strikes performed rapidly against an adversary, I envision them all as straighforward, that none are fancy/flashy. No 360 degrees jumping and spinning kicks, etc., as might be in a demo, a tournament, or a bout.

You believe that techniques you are proficient with, which others call flashy, are viable in a real-life situtation. I believe that it may be so for you, but not for the majority. There is a point at which we are dealing with techniques that are the "art" in martial arts, beyond what the average man or woman needs to execute well to defend him- or herself in a real-life situation.
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The BB of C · Black Belt

What I said is that a well-executed hook punch might look flashy to a spectator or bystander.
I understand what the two of your are saying but at the same time I think you're not giving enough credit to these things. I used a variety of different examples for this reason.
Example one and two were examples of spontaneous movement against a charging opponent.
I felt like the Kyokushin fighters in example video 4 showed how to get these moves off the ground and on target from close range, high contact and high intensity. I also felt (the first time I watched it) that they were flashy kicks. I realized later that they were just well executed (back to my original theory).
And the last example was showing how you can use your opponent's grounding aginst him.

bushido_man96 · KF Sensei

It appears that we tend to view the terminology differently.

For example, TKD is known for its kicking, especially high kicking, spin kicking, jump kicking, etc. Olympic TKD competition has allowed some of the fancier kicks to thrive in a competition-based environment. However, I don't believe them all to be practical in self-defense scenarios.

There is a difference between efficient and effective. Something can be effective (jump 360 degree roundhouse kick to head, that makes contact), and something can be efficient (right cross to the jaw). But just because something is effective, doesn't mean that it is efficient.
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tallgeese · Black Belt

That's very well put, bushido man.

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