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JusticeZero
Black Belt
Joined: 02 Apr 2005
Posts: 2166
Location: AK
Styles: Capoeira Angola
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 Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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Pretty movements may not be effective, but effective movements tend to be pretty, particularly if your art's movement style favors circles.
Furthemore, it is poor thinking to invoke the mythical "streetfighter" everywhere, the mystical Everyman Warrior who can routinely achieve feats of movement and combat which cannot be matched by highly trained combat athletes. For instance, I am quite confident doing techniques that cause me to briefly turn my back on people, because under he circumstances where they are called for, it is not physically possible for a human being to alter their momentum and positioning enough for it to matter. People don't just teleport around.
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"Anything worth doing is worth doing badly." - Baleia |
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joesteph
Black Belt
Joined: 11 Aug 2008
Posts: 2753
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 2:27 pm Post subject: |
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In the June 2003 issue of Black Belt, there's an article on p. 48, "Beyond Technique," about a mother out sightseeing with her teenage daughter, and when a mugger gets rough with Mom for her pocketbook, the daughter enters into the fray.
It's online at:
http://books.google.com/books?i....PPT9,M1
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~ Joe
Vee Arnis Jitsu/JuJitsu |
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RW
Green Belt
Joined: 07 Mar 2009
Posts: 426
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| Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 6:00 pm Post subject: |
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I believe no martial art "purely" helps you to win a fight, in a strict meaning.
Show me someone who attempts a zen kutsu dachi (forward foot) or horse stance in a fight and I will show you... someone really dumb. Who would pull his hand to the waist when punching? Who tries a sword hand block in a real fight? This renders striking styles like karate and taekwondo useless for a fight.
Now, regarding grappling styles such as judo and jiu jitsu, those are in my opinion even less useful. You don't drop to the floor in real life in an Tales Leites kind of way and wait for the opponent to attack you. In real life, your opponent will stomp on you, jump over you, try to soccer kick you in the face, etc. You don't pull those locks and grapples because... the opponent can always headbutt you, bite you, try to pull your ear, fishhook you or reach out for your groin.
Brazilian Jiu Jitsu has proven very effective in the UFC. Now let's recall most grapple-intensive fights. If I was in a drinking game where everytime the "losing" side in the grapple could quickly win the fight by using a headbutt, reaching for the other dude's crotch (or kneeing it or whatever) or trying some other plausible but forbidden maneuver... I'd need to get a new liver.
******
Having said that, I do believe that striking styles give you something very important: Reflexes! Your reaction time will be faster. Your body will be faster and/or stronger as well.
Grappling styles will probably make you stronger as well and might teach you some useful things you can pull if the exact right conditions happen.
Muay thai, on the other hand... it does seem to be helpful. Boxing punches (easy to pull off in a fight!) and more basic, less risky kicks. Still, it is not 100% applicable, just like karate/tkd etc.
Just my 2 cents  |
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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RW
Green Belt
Joined: 07 Mar 2009
Posts: 426
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| Posted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 9:05 am Post subject: |
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| bushido_man96 wrote: |
| So, if no MA helps, then why are they still around? What good are they, then? |
Of course they are good for self defense... most of them, anyway.
But not because of their "pure" aspect, but because they will make you fit, improve your reaction times, make you hit harder, move faster, etc.
You will see the ocassional chance to use some moves from your MA in a fight (maybe a round kick to the thigh, maybe a side kick to keep the opponent at bay, maybe certain punches), but you will mostly be doing whatever you can do: kicks to the groin, boxing-like punches, kicks to the shin, etc, very non-MA moves.
I practiced shotokan for like 18 years and I also had a couple fights in real life when I was a teen. I ocasionally did (karate) side kicks. But I threw "regular" punches, slammed the other dude's head in the wall, etc. No "knife hand block". No backfist strike (ura ken), no furi tsuki (that weird punch in which you spin the knuckles and your palm ends facing away from your body). No high kicks... see my point?
I believe MAs are still around because they're fantastic disciplines, great for staying fit, they are fun, they can sometimes impart discipline, and they help a little bit for self defense. MANY people, want to defend themselves better, but without basically paying for getting the **** out of them on a weekly basis and be striked in the face or whatever like they would in a boxing class or the like. |
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tallgeese
Black Belt
Joined: 04 May 2008
Posts: 6879
Location: McHenry County, IL
Styles: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Bujin Bugei Jutsu, Gokei Ryu Kempo Jutsu, MMA, Shootfighting, boxing, kickboxing, JKD, Pekiti Tersia Kali
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| Posted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 11:44 am Post subject: |
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Kicks to the groin, boxing like punches, kicks to the shin. Add MT rounds, the off side kick now and again. The occasional "other" tactic....
Sounds exactly like ma to me. |
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DWx
Black Belt
Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 6455
Location: UK
Styles: Tae Kwon Do & Yang family Tai Chi
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| Posted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 11:47 am Post subject: |
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I have to disagree RW. Sure you'd rarely see someone do a "proper" ma move as in get into a front stance and do a certain technique whilst pulling back to the hip etc. but the training you do does build up to give you more of an advantage in a fight through developing the right body mechanics. Even if you are not in a perfect fighting stance, chances are you are probably in something that resembles one. Depending on the person you might unconsiously shift the weight more onto one leg or move the weight forward onto the balls of your feet or whatever. Still a direct by-product of your training. And I would hope it becomes instinct to block/parry or dodge an incoming attack, i.e. what you're learning from your MA training.
| RW wrote: |
| You will see the ocassional chance to use some moves from your MA in a fight (maybe a round kick to the thigh, maybe a side kick to keep the opponent at bay, maybe certain punches), but you will mostly be doing whatever you can do: kicks to the groin, boxing-like punches, kicks to the shin, etc, very non-MA moves. |
Those sound very like MA moves to me. Low kicking (shin and groin height) are the first kicks we learn my style and aren't boxing-punches still MA even if they are not Eastern MA...
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"Everything has its beauty, but not everyone sees it." ~ Confucius |
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Kuma
Black Belt
Joined: 03 Dec 2008
Posts: 1092
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| Posted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 7:22 pm Post subject: |
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| I'm a police officer and I get to utilize my MA training almost weekly. I can definitely say that yes it works, since there is a huge majority of people out there who don't know how to fight well in the first place so by you training you'll already have a big advantage. |
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Throwdown0850
Brown Belt
Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 701
Styles: Judo, BJJ, Uechi Ryu
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| Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2009 10:58 am Post subject: |
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| RW wrote: |
I believe no martial art "purely" helps you to win a fight, in a strict meaning.
Show me someone who attempts a zen kutsu dachi (forward foot) or horse stance in a fight and I will show you... someone really dumb. Who would pull his hand to the waist when punching? Who tries a sword hand block in a real fight? This renders striking styles like karate and taekwondo useless for a fight.
Now, regarding grappling styles such as judo and jiu jitsu, those are in my opinion even less useful. You don't drop to the floor in real life in an Tales Leites kind of way and wait for the opponent to attack you. In real life, your opponent will stomp on you, jump over you, try to soccer kick you in the face, etc. You don't pull those locks and grapples because... the opponent can always headbutt you, bite you, try to pull your ear, fishhook you or reach out for your groin.
Brazilian Jiu Jitsu has proven very effective in the UFC. Now let's recall most grapple-intensive fights. If I was in a drinking game where everytime the "losing" side in the grapple could quickly win the fight by using a headbutt, reaching for the other dude's crotch (or kneeing it or whatever) or trying some other plausible but forbidden maneuver... I'd need to get a new liver.
******
Having said that, I do believe that striking styles give you something very important: Reflexes! Your reaction time will be faster. Your body will be faster and/or stronger as well.
Grappling styles will probably make you stronger as well and might teach you some useful things you can pull if the exact right conditions happen.
Muay thai, on the other hand... it does seem to be helpful. Boxing punches (easy to pull off in a fight!) and more basic, less risky kicks. Still, it is not 100% applicable, just like karate/tkd etc.
Just my 2 cents |
first off, the whole getting on the ground and waiting for the attacker to strike?? NO one said that... where you got that idea is beyond me?? and if you trained in Judo,JJ etc.. you would know that is nowhere in our training. 2. imo, Judo/JJ and all those practice at full resistance, if that isnt effective, I dont know what it is.. as for the groin and biting, you always cant practice that so you just have to remember to do it in a fight when needed. even punches and muay thai kicks arent always going to work. you just have to use what is thrown at you.
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You must become more than just a man in the mind of your opponent. -Henri Ducard |
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joesteph
Black Belt
Joined: 11 Aug 2008
Posts: 2753
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2009 12:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuma wrote: |
I'm a police officer . . . [S]ince there is a huge majority of people out there who don't know how to fight well in the first place so by you training you'll already have a big advantage.
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Would those in law enforcement say that, in their experience, the ones you find who resort to bullying and starting fights rely more on brute strength, initimidation (by their attire, loud swearing, size), and maybe knowing just the sucker punch and the front kick?
If so, I can see MA training, as Kuma said, as an advantage, important in dealing with an assailant.
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~ Joe
Vee Arnis Jitsu/JuJitsu |
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on the post.
