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Luther unleashed
Brown Belt
Joined: 30 Jan 2014
Posts: 676
Location: Phoenix
Styles: A few!
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 Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 12:53 am Post subject: Don't open a dojo, make a deal! |
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What I mean to say is there are many ways to teach and make a living that don't involve open on a dojo. I am on no way at all wanting to detour anybody from opening a studio. I'm simply trying to give insight to the subject.
I recently walked away from my own studio after 4 months or so. 4 short months. My family was having financial struggles to the point of eviction from our home. I could ha e kept going with the studio but I was a few hundred short on rent there, and short the electric bill. I could have gotten through it, but I chose to walk away for my families sake, it wasn't east to walk away but I did what a man should do and chose my families well being above all else. It needed to pay for itself or I was walking and I did.
I didn't however walk away from my recreation center location because there is no overhead, no electric, no rent, no bils, no risk, so no brainer, don't walk away. I can't charge as much for services but that seems to balance out with a constant flow of people in the rec center with me not worrying about advertising at all. The more people the more income, even at a lesser rate.
Today was my first day at another location I started an after school program. The school doesn't want a penny, as they just want to offer a great program, nothing more. 24 students attended tonight's class, a successful number indeed. Again, not an ounce of advertising on my side. In my studio FYI I never really cracked 15 students, it was in the summer and many people were vacationing but still, location location location. What dojo has a better location then a school, or a recreation center where there is a constant untapped we'll of potential students?
Id's opening a dojo a bad idea? Nope! There are much more effective ways though IMHO to have a very solid program. Ways with no risk, and no going put of business. If I get down to 5 students at either program, I make less, but I don't go out of business. It's for this reason I actually never wanted to open a dojo but after over a year of trying get a second location at a rec center or school I fell short consistently. Why? Well it's because of the risk and the money needed to drive that ship, the other methods I mentioned carry much less stress and that's worth plenty.
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Spartacus Maximus
Black Belt
Joined: 01 Jun 2014
Posts: 1902
Styles: Shorin ryu
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| Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 7:27 am Post subject: |
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Very good choice and wise decision. No business is free of risk and if the expenses become too much to manage, closing is the only solution if it means saving one's livelihood.
One of the best ways to maximize the chances of success is to build up a significant regular student base before thinking of renting a place specifically for that purpose. The best way of doing this cheaply is to start a club by teaching in a sports centre, public gym or even sharing space with another instructor.
This is always much, much cheaper with little risk compared to renting a place for the purpose, let alone having that place customized for martial arts instruction. A few years of doing this and establishing a regular student base, should normally allow an instructor to accumulate adequate resources to open a location. |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16425
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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Good topic, Lex!!
The great thing about any business is that there are no guarantees, as there is no one only model in which to open said business. Hopefully, the model chosen works out to be a successful one, but that primarily depends on how it's managed in every know aspect of that business.
Negotiation is a key tool, and one shouldn't be afraid to negotiate anything and everything, because the opposite of "NO", is "YES", and if it's approached professionally, the "YES" will outweigh "NO".
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Luther unleashed
Brown Belt
Joined: 30 Jan 2014
Posts: 676
Location: Phoenix
Styles: A few!
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| Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 11:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Spartacus Maximus wrote: |
One of the best ways to maximize the chances of success is to build up a significant regular student base before thinking of renting a place specifically for that purpose. The best way of doing this cheaply is to start a club by teaching in a sports centre, public gym or even sharing space with another instructor.
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So this part really stuck out to me. I have witnessed studios doing this and it's intelligent for sure. The problem for me was I felt I was going to have better success in my place of residence where I live with my social butterfly wofe , my Rec center was a 35 min drive away and that's the only reason I chose to make a second location rather then created a location from filtering my rec center students into it. Also, I would of course have to charge closet to $100 a month or more, at the rec center I'm half that price, not all would follow.
Live and learn, I learned that I could have been more patient, but all in all it lead to another opertunity with a private school and 24 students in one night seems like I'm on the right path, even if I got here through a stressful detour lol.
Sensei, negotiating is important. There's no garentee as you said, but that is kind of my point, this topic brings light to the fact that there are a few ways for the common martial arts I structure to really maximise chances by taking a similar direction.
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo
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| Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2016 3:57 pm Post subject: |
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Luther Unleashed,
I agree with you about not needing a Dojo. When I returned home from the Marines I taught for 10 years before officially opening a Dojo. I taught in the basement of a church, in a students Pole Barn, and in my back yard (really great physical and mental conditioning when it snowed). It was but no one liked it except for me and a few hard core students.
For three months I actually taught in a bowling alley after we lost the church location.
The point is what you have to "sell" is your knowledge, not your location.
You can teach anywhere. If your students gain experience and feel like they are improving under your direction, most could careless where they train.
If you attract the right kind of students the situation takes care of itself because they are there to learn and do not worry about where they learn.
My senior student up until a year ago was teaching out of his pole barn and had a minimum student attendance of 40+ on any given class night.
My teacher taught out of his garage for the first 5 years after I started. I never cared. |
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Luther unleashed
Brown Belt
Joined: 30 Jan 2014
Posts: 676
Location: Phoenix
Styles: A few!
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| Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2016 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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| MatsuShinshii wrote: |
Luther Unleashed,
I agree with you about not needing a Dojo. When I returned home from the Marines I taught for 10 years before officially opening a Dojo. I taught in the basement of a church, in a students Pole Barn, and in my back yard (really great physical and mental conditioning when it snowed). It was but no one liked it except for me and a few hard core students.
For three months I actually taught in a bowling alley after we lost the church location.
The point is what you have to "sell" is your knowledge, not your location.
You can teach anywhere. If your students gain experience and feel like they are improving under your direction, most could careless where they train.
If you attract the right kind of students the situation takes care of itself because they are there to learn and do not worry about where they learn.
My senior student up until a year ago was teaching out of his pole barn and had a minimum student attendance of 40+ on any given class night.
My teacher taught out of his garage for the first 5 years after I started. I never cared. |
First off congratulations on all of your success because it sounds like you have really put in the work and succeeded in many ways. Those are great numbers for those circumstances.
I agree with the things you are saying but objectively speaking I have had locations that were in great areas do poorly and I have had crappy locations do well. I think that it's certainly possible to teach in your backyard or garage or wherever and be successful but I think it is misleading To simply call out those numbers under those circumstances because in most cases it is a lot harder to pull people than it sounds. Adults these age in many ways are really not geared towards traditional martial arts so depending on what you teach can depend on how well you do it first. Kickboxing and jujitsu really have a hold of the adults and what seems cool to do so traditional martial arts are really turning into something to teach the kids discipline and so on.
As with anything it's always about a little bit of luck and how you market yourself. From the standpoint of risk and things of that nature renting your own space can simply be a lot more rest and some of these other ways though which was kind of my point. In my dojo if I did not maintain a certain amount of students I could not pay the rent, at the recreation center if I do not maintain a certain amount of students I simply cannot pay my bills but there's a big difference because it means I go out and get a different job or A second job but the recreation center business does not go out of business because of low numbers unless I choose to walk away.
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Hustle and hard work are a substitute for talent! |
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo
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| Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2016 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Luther unleashed wrote: |
| MatsuShinshii wrote: |
Luther Unleashed,
I agree with you about not needing a Dojo. When I returned home from the Marines I taught for 10 years before officially opening a Dojo. I taught in the basement of a church, in a students Pole Barn, and in my back yard (really great physical and mental conditioning when it snowed). It was but no one liked it except for me and a few hard core students.
For three months I actually taught in a bowling alley after we lost the church location.
The point is what you have to "sell" is your knowledge, not your location.
You can teach anywhere. If your students gain experience and feel like they are improving under your direction, most could careless where they train.
If you attract the right kind of students the situation takes care of itself because they are there to learn and do not worry about where they learn.
My senior student up until a year ago was teaching out of his pole barn and had a minimum student attendance of 40+ on any given class night.
My teacher taught out of his garage for the first 5 years after I started. I never cared. |
First off congratulations on all of your success because it sounds like you have really put in the work and succeeded in many ways. Those are great numbers for those circumstances.
I agree with the things you are saying but objectively speaking I have had locations that were in great areas do poorly and I have had crappy locations do well. I think that it's certainly possible to teach in your backyard or garage or wherever and be successful but I think it is misleading To simply call out those numbers under those circumstances because in most cases it is a lot harder to pull people than it sounds. Adults these age in many ways are really not geared towards traditional martial arts so depending on what you teach can depend on how well you do it first. Kickboxing and jujitsu really have a hold of the adults and what seems cool to do so traditional martial arts are really turning into something to teach the kids discipline and so on.
As with anything it's always about a little bit of luck and how you market yourself. From the standpoint of risk and things of that nature renting your own space can simply be a lot more rest and some of these other ways though which was kind of my point. In my dojo if I did not maintain a certain amount of students I could not pay the rent, at the recreation center if I do not maintain a certain amount of students I simply cannot pay my bills but there's a big difference because it means I go out and get a different job or A second job but the recreation center business does not go out of business because of low numbers unless I choose to walk away. |
I understand your point. I don't agree with Traditional arts being something only for kids and adults not being geared for it.
I do not teach kids under the age of 16. Just my personal issue.
I teach Matsumura Shorin Ryu (or what my organization now calls Matsumura Suidi) and only have adults attending classes. My youngest student is 28 years old.
I think the issue is how you teach traditional arts or what most think is traditional arts based on their definition.
We teach the old ways. What was taught before Japan took over most arts and the way they are taught. Most teach the "Do" and we still teach both the "Jutsu" and the "Do". Having said this, the main difference that I have seen is that we still teach the old ways. We pass on to our students Torite, Tegumi, Kyusho (not the Dillman Kyusho/Tuite but what was handed down) and we teach this in conjunction with the Kata and not as a separate component. Our students learn the real world applications of which are contained within the Kata itself.
I have found that this interests most adults because they are looking for not only a way to stay in shape but more importantly to defend themselves. They find that most of what can be found within the popular arts now a days is contained within Karate.
I appreciate the fact that not every location is agreeable and depending on where you live dictates how you market your art and how you teach it to be able to draw in new students. However IMHO I have always found that the art itself is the best marketing tool that we have. I show them and allow them to see what they will be taught and it pretty much does the trick for me. Of course I am not dependent on a certain number of students as I have a full time occupation and do not need the additional income that more students present to the full time instructor.
I merely point out that the location is not what sells. What sells is your knowledge and your passion for the art. You are what pulls in the students and makes them want to stay irregardless of where you teach.
If the quality of instruction is good the location can be crappy and your students will keep coming back.
And the fact that I do not need a certain number of students does not escape me. I realize that numbers dictate whether a Dojo's doors stay open or close. This is the reason that I choose to not rent until I had an ample number of students to maintain the rent. I am not sure how I would fair if my income was dependent upon a certain number of students. I don't claim to be in your shoes. Having said that I still firmly believe that to sell yourself and the knowledge and skill that you have obtained and can pass on is more important to students than the location in which they learn.
I may be wrong and our opinions come from our personal experiences so in no way am I diminishing yours.
I wish you luck and know you'll find your success. Best wishes. |
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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2468
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| Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2016 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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Must be said, that there is an excellent support structure for all martial artists here on KarateForums.com; be it for beginners or martial art veterans.
Congratulations to all those that teach martial arts. The future of martial arts is now in your hands. |
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Luther unleashed
Brown Belt
Joined: 30 Jan 2014
Posts: 676
Location: Phoenix
Styles: A few!
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| Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2016 11:55 pm Post subject: |
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| MatsuShinshii wrote: |
| Luther unleashed wrote: |
| MatsuShinshii wrote: |
Luther Unleashed,
I agree with you about not needing a Dojo. When I returned home from the Marines I taught for 10 years before officially opening a Dojo. I taught in the basement of a church, in a students Pole Barn, and in my back yard (really great physical and mental conditioning when it snowed). It was but no one liked it except for me and a few hard core students.
For three months I actually taught in a bowling alley after we lost the church location.
The point is what you have to "sell" is your knowledge, not your location.
You can teach anywhere. If your students gain experience and feel like they are improving under your direction, most could careless where they train.
If you attract the right kind of students the situation takes care of itself because they are there to learn and do not worry about where they learn.
My senior student up until a year ago was teaching out of his pole barn and had a minimum student attendance of 40+ on any given class night.
My teacher taught out of his garage for the first 5 years after I started. I never cared. |
First off congratulations on all of your success because it sounds like you have really put in the work and succeeded in many ways. Those are great numbers for those circumstances.
I agree with the things you are saying but objectively speaking I have had locations that were in great areas do poorly and I have had crappy locations do well. I think that it's certainly possible to teach in your backyard or garage or wherever and be successful but I think it is misleading To simply call out those numbers under those circumstances because in most cases it is a lot harder to pull people than it sounds. Adults these age in many ways are really not geared towards traditional martial arts so depending on what you teach can depend on how well you do it first. Kickboxing and jujitsu really have a hold of the adults and what seems cool to do so traditional martial arts are really turning into something to teach the kids discipline and so on.
As with anything it's always about a little bit of luck and how you market yourself. From the standpoint of risk and things of that nature renting your own space can simply be a lot more rest and some of these other ways though which was kind of my point. In my dojo if I did not maintain a certain amount of students I could not pay the rent, at the recreation center if I do not maintain a certain amount of students I simply cannot pay my bills but there's a big difference because it means I go out and get a different job or A second job but the recreation center business does not go out of business because of low numbers unless I choose to walk away. |
I understand your point. I don't agree with Traditional arts being something only for kids and adults not being geared for it.
I do not teach kids under the age of 16. Just my personal issue.
I teach Matsumura Shorin Ryu (or what my organization now calls Matsumura Suidi) and only have adults attending classes. My youngest student is 28 years old.
I think the issue is how you teach traditional arts or what most think is traditional arts based on their definition.
We teach the old ways. What was taught before Japan took over most arts and the way they are taught. Most teach the "Do" and we still teach both the "Jutsu" and the "Do". Having said this, the main difference that I have seen is that we still teach the old ways. We pass on to our students Torite, Tegumi, Kyusho (not the Dillman Kyusho/Tuite but what was handed down) and we teach this in conjunction with the Kata and not as a separate component. Our students learn the real world applications of which are contained within the Kata itself.
I have found that this interests most adults because they are looking for not only a way to stay in shape but more importantly to defend themselves. They find that most of what can be found within the popular arts now a days is contained within Karate.
I appreciate the fact that not every location is agreeable and depending on where you live dictates how you market your art and how you teach it to be able to draw in new students. However IMHO I have always found that the art itself is the best marketing tool that we have. I show them and allow them to see what they will be taught and it pretty much does the trick for me. Of course I am not dependent on a certain number of students as I have a full time occupation and do not need the additional income that more students present to the full time instructor.
I merely point out that the location is not what sells. What sells is your knowledge and your passion for the art. You are what pulls in the students and makes them want to stay irregardless of where you teach.
If the quality of instruction is good the location can be crappy and your students will keep coming back.
And the fact that I do not need a certain number of students does not escape me. I realize that numbers dictate whether a Dojo's doors stay open or close. This is the reason that I choose to not rent until I had an ample number of students to maintain the rent. I am not sure how I would fair if my income was dependent upon a certain number of students. I don't claim to be in your shoes. Having said that I still firmly believe that to sell yourself and the knowledge and skill that you have obtained and can pass on is more important to students than the location in which they learn.
I may be wrong and our opinions come from our personal experiences so in no way am I diminishing yours.
I wish you luck and know you'll find your success. Best wishes. |
It just isn't my experience that the average adult is drawn to karate. These days anyways, so in essence when I say "these days" im saying older adults might be, but for the most part adults are into things like BJJ and kickboxing. It's easy to understand why. When we had a BJJ guy come to our place when I was at my last dojo training, he would lean on the wall, and if he was late to class would mosey on in, and if he was waiting for a rotation would put one foot on the wall while leaning. It was hard to break these habits. I have been around BJJ and it's just that way, even at my dojo before I closed down I had a really high level guy there, a high level Gracie guy and was very respectful, but he treated it like a gym, not a sanctuary like a karate guy would. The same for kickboxing, it's the lack of rules, and discipline, and lack of "do it my own way" that isn't as appealing. I'm an adult and I'm 39, it's always appealed to me, so obviously some are ok with it, but if your saying that if you walk in the average karate studio that iit will be as packed as a BJJ place or an MMA branded place I just think that's crazy.
There is something many adults could learn from it all, but many won't sadly.
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