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Tempest
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 31 Aug 2006
Posts: 416
Location: Tulsa, OK
Styles: Judo, HEMA

PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
And are those precepts, and the like, the foundation of morality taught within the context and/or the content of both the martial arts and the martial artist??


Considering that most of them are tactical and strategic advice, I would be VERY wary of treating them as a foundation of good moral philosophy. That being said I guess you could if you wanted to, but implying that there is something INHERENT in them that should be a foundation for moral thought and philosophy is a stretch.
That would be like me taking my moral philosophy from Von Clauswitz. I COULD, but I don't think I SHOULD for the purposes of living a moral life outside of some VERY specific circumstances.
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Tempest
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 31 Aug 2006
Posts: 416
Location: Tulsa, OK
Styles: Judo, HEMA

PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Without morality in both the martial arts and the martial artist, what are we left with??


Quote:
Martial Arts, in all honesty, is just a thing we do. It has no feelings, it has no conscience, it doesn't know right or wrong. It is those who practice and teach and learn the Martial Arts that add their own views and outlooks on life into what they teach.


I am gonna just shamelessly, although incompletely steal Brian's line here, because it most assuredly applies to this question.
I do have some doubts about most of us being well adjusted. I think that martial arts tend to help us BECOME well adjusted eventually if it is done correctly, but keep in mind that we do engage in gratuitous violence for fun. There is something a little out of step with most people in that as a basic principle.
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LLLEARNER
Brown Belt
Brown Belt

Joined: 10 Feb 2016
Posts: 687
Location: Central Maine

PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tempest wrote:
Quote:
Without morality in both the martial arts and the martial artist, what are we left with??


Quote:
Martial Arts, in all honesty, is just a thing we do. It has no feelings, it has no conscience, it doesn't know right or wrong. It is those who practice and teach and learn the Martial Arts that add their own views and outlooks on life into what they teach.


I am gonna just shamelessly, although incompletely steal Brian's line here, because it most assuredly applies to this question.
I do have some doubts about most of us being well adjusted. I think that martial arts tend to help us BECOME well adjusted eventually if it is done correctly, but keep in mind that we do engage in gratuitous violence for fun. There is something a little out of step with most people in that as a basic principle.


So do most people engaged in sport. Organized sports can be seen as a controlled outlet for the violence inherent in human nature.
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 14155
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great replies, everyone!! Thank you, everyone.

Let the discussion continue!!

Quote:
Is it the sole, and/or shared responsibility of the martial art school, and/or its governing body, to teach, as well as, instill the code of morality to/in its student body??

While the CI/Instructor/Etc., only interacts with the student body sparsely each week, the influences felt by the student might be more than one can imagine.

Many students around the world don't have any parent(s) to mold them into being that responsible human being. Take me, for example.

My mom and dad divorced before I entered kindergarten. While my mom tried to fill in the role of mom and dad, it still left the "dad" upbringing portion lacking. It's not mom's fault, after all, she's the mom, and not the dad!!

Enter Yosinobu Takahashi...aka...Dai-Soke...my Sensei for nearly 50 years. He became, to me, my surrogate dad. Indirectly at first, and in time, directly!! He, imho, molded me to be the man that I am today.

I had uncles and grandfathers, and they were all very active in helping my mom raise us three over the many years. Still, that void was wrenching for me then, and still is today. My uncles and grandfathers, on both sides of the family, did instill in me that morality fiber, and I owe them everything. Nonetheless, and to me honest, I spent much more time at the dojo with Dai-Soke than any other man in the world. If I wasn't at school or at home, I was at the dojo/Hombu either training and/or attending to dojo chores and/or whatever was asked of me by my seniors, especially when it came to Soke and Dai-Soke.

Dai-Soke taught me more that Shindokan. He took upon himself to be my surrogate father, and in a way, he was an excellent candidate for being a part of the Big Brother organization. He was in my life, both in and out of the dojo, with mom's approval.

No, Soke didn't approve of it, not even a little bit because it violated one of the biggest instructor maxims. However, Soke didn't interfere outwardly, but Dai-Soke, many years later, once I was an adult, spoke to me about the battles Soke and he would have over this very situation, and quite often. However, to be that surrogate dad for me, was left up to Dai-Soke, and not Soke.

Shared, I can concur with this wholeheartedly. For sole to apply, Dai-Soke would have to marry my mom AND adopt me, imho. I took the shared responsibility any chance I could because I was starving for that father figure in my life so desperately.

My dad and I have a great relationship. Albeit, we were estranged from one another from time to time for whatever the reason(s) might've been at those moments, especially during my very early adulthood days. I hated dad for walking out on mom, and for him not being there for us three when we were under 18 years of age. I was bitter towards him. Sure, we three spent time with him during the summer, but I always thought that he was doing it to appease mom, and not us.

Where was my dad during the winter, spring, and fall?? Who knows, but it wasn't with us!! Dad's morality content came much later in my life, but it was sincere, and thoughtful, and helpful, and most of all, loving. Dad's morality context came from his dad, my grandfather, and it was easy to see. Grandpa Mitcham was the one where I learned...

"Say what you mean, and mean what you say, always!!" He loathed thieves and liars, and I must say, his ways were harsh, but they were honest. He'd give to strangers as though they were family; he was very old fashioned across the board, and there was no misgivings.

So, I suppose when it comes to my dads morality teachings towards us three, it's better late, than never!!

Dai-Soke is my surrogate dad, and he raised me both in and out of the dojo!!



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Tempest
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 31 Aug 2006
Posts: 416
Location: Tulsa, OK
Styles: Judo, HEMA

PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LLLEARNER wrote:
Tempest wrote:
Quote:
Without morality in both the martial arts and the martial artist, what are we left with??


Quote:
Martial Arts, in all honesty, is just a thing we do. It has no feelings, it has no conscience, it doesn't know right or wrong. It is those who practice and teach and learn the Martial Arts that add their own views and outlooks on life into what they teach.


I am gonna just shamelessly, although incompletely steal Brian's line here, because it most assuredly applies to this question.
I do have some doubts about most of us being well adjusted. I think that martial arts tend to help us BECOME well adjusted eventually if it is done correctly, but keep in mind that we do engage in gratuitous violence for fun. There is something a little out of step with most people in that as a basic principle.


So do most people engaged in sport. Organized sports can be seen as a controlled outlet for the violence inherent in human nature.


Perhaps, but due to our acknowledgement of what we do, it takes a certain type of person to engage in it. Running and swimming, while they may demand violence of action at times, do not involve intentional direct harm to others, nor do they require you to confront the possibility of harming others on a regular basis. Perhaps hockey does, but that's just stick fighting on ice anyway .
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