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vasilist
Yellow Belt
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Joined: 19 Oct 2011
Posts: 26


PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 5:50 pm    Post subject: eastern and western arts Reply with quote

i want opinions about the western-eastern arts
my point is from what we see in most west arts (like boxing, kick boxing or whatever) athletes can be very powerful as long as they concume great ammounts of time in training(logical) and by the time they stop for a period they cant perform even at 50% and u see old "gramps" 60-70 years old as the "masters" on arts like whin chung, karate and so on and even though their body is old and pretty much messed up, being healthy and strong enough taking out easy "younger" (not at age, but in training" practioneers
and seriously, i doubt the masters are going running 2 hours a day ,nor they do weighlifing
while i dont see boxers keeping their strenght (not to mention about increasing) after 50
will it be safe to conclude that in the long run
arts like karate, kung fu and so on are most evolving than others???(assuming they are taught properly)
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Zaine
Black Belt
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Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 1817
Location: Dallas, TX
Styles: Matsumura-Seito, Shobayashi-Ryu, Shudokan, Long Fist, American Street Karate, Southern Mantis, HEMA

PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's not an eastern vs western deal but a proper training vs improper training, by which I mean how the practitioner trains. The dynamics that you're seeing is that, first off, the old people have been doing it their entire lives, it's not rare that they would have the ability to mop floor with the younger fighters. It's also that some people have the brilliant thought not to destroy their bodies to train because it's not necessary. A good deal of my generation is of the mind that they need to train, train, train as hard and as fast as they can so they can see results faster. While on the other hand, older generations know that not only are you hurting yourself by doing that, you're actually slowing your progress due to the fact that your muscles aren't being given the time to rest, and therefore grow and be productive.
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JusticeZero
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Joined: 02 Apr 2005
Posts: 2166
Location: AK
Styles: Capoeira Angola

PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also:
While elder eastern GM's skill may be legendary, in open competition with their juniors they start getting trounced after a certain point, no matter how foreign they might be.
The same is true of western MA.
Western MA tend to focus on hard competition as a measure of skill; eastern tends to emphasize pure skill and knowledge more.
In both cases, the 80 year old master, be it of baguazhang, taekwondo, or golden gloves boxing, has the skill and knowledge to flatten the unskilled in any case.
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vasilist
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Joined: 19 Oct 2011
Posts: 26


PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks for answers

justin my point is after an age a boxer (for example) becomes trainer, has the knowledge and experience but not the ability of boxing (ofc he can smash an total amateur punk or something, but not an 5 year hard training one) cause he may have the wisdom but he cant anymore do it in action
while the old "gramps" has the wisdom and ability so i though maybe in the long run the way eastern arts take is more efficient than western since in western u must work really hard to have effects and even more to keep those effects
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MasterPain
Black Belt
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Joined: 26 Oct 2010
Posts: 1949
Location: Parts Unknown
Styles: Bujin Bugei Jutsu, Backyard Kali, Satsui no Hadou

PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

vasilist wrote:
thanks for answers

justin my point is after an age a boxer (for example) becomes trainer, has the knowledge and experience but not the ability of boxing (ofc he can smash an total amateur punk or something, but not an 5 year hard training one) cause he may have the wisdom but he cant anymore do it in action
while the old "gramps" has the wisdom and ability so i though maybe in the long run the way eastern arts take is more efficient than western since in western u must work really hard to have effects and even more to keep those effects


Simply, no. In an all out fight, the guy with 5 years hard training beats the old guy that can't train hard anymore regardless of style. Not in a slow egoless technical sparring match, but in an all out fight, yes.

You notice Helio let Royce represent the family, despite likely being technically better. Why? Because he was an old man who had no business in an all out fight.
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Zaine
Black Belt
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Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 1817
Location: Dallas, TX
Styles: Matsumura-Seito, Shobayashi-Ryu, Shudokan, Long Fist, American Street Karate, Southern Mantis, HEMA

PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MasterPain wrote:
Simply, no. In an all out fight, the guy with 5 years hard training beats the old guy that can't train hard anymore regardless of style. Not in a slow egoless technical sparring match, but in an all out fight, yes.


I don't know about that. I've heard many stories where an old man beat a younger guy who was trained plenty of times. I suppose it depends on whether or not the old person is training, and old masters tend to continue training to some extent throughout their lifetimes.
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MasterPain
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Joined: 26 Oct 2010
Posts: 1949
Location: Parts Unknown
Styles: Bujin Bugei Jutsu, Backyard Kali, Satsui no Hadou

PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I still say Dan Severn would have snapped Helio in half.
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vasilist
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Joined: 19 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

but the exercise is different...
boxer do weights and tons of run
whin chung do katas and hit a stupid wooden pole

u cant do weight lifting after one age
but u can be disciplined and precise for like ever
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JusticeZero
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Joined: 02 Apr 2005
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Location: AK
Styles: Capoeira Angola

PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can ALWAYS do weight lifting. There are 90 year olds who do weight lifting. It's one of the best exercizes they can do.

But that doesn't mean that they can go toe to toe with a 20 year old with skill and physique. The 20 year old heals a lot faster, and can as a result maintain a much higher level of fitness.

Three parts of skill might be able to beat one part of fitness and one part of skill. But three parts of skill is not going to fare well against two parts of skill and three parts of fitness. Even four parts of skill aren't going to do well against that.
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JusticeZero
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Joined: 02 Apr 2005
Posts: 2166
Location: AK
Styles: Capoeira Angola

PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, look. Here's the thing. You want to know the difference between Eastern martial arts and Western martial arts. Here's the only difference.

Eastern martial arts were created by Asians, with the training arranged around the lifestyle and culture of Asia (or at least the parts that the creators were from).

Western martial arts were created by Caucasians, with the training arranged around the lifestyle and culture of Europe and formerly-British-empire regions (or at least the parts that the creators were from).

That really is the only difference. If you go to Asia, it is the foreign arts such as Boxing, Wrestling, and the like which are surrounded by mystique and mysticism and oohs and ahhs.

If you can find a third vantage point, this is even more apparent. What are your thoughts on ancient African martial artists? Or ancient South American indigenous martial skills? How about martial arts from the Pacific Islands? What about traditional stuff from the Middle East?
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