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JusticeZero
Black Belt
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Joined: 02 Apr 2005
Posts: 2166
Location: AK
Styles: Capoeira Angola

PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:02 pm    Post subject: Employees fired for stopping shoplifter Reply with quote

I'm just going to post this for discussion. Not much I can say to it really..

http://consumerist.com/2011/02/walmart-employees-fired-for-stopping-armed-robber.html
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Wolfman08
Yellow Belt
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Joined: 17 Jan 2011
Posts: 92
Location: Big Red Country
Styles: Cuong Nhu and MCMAP

PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sadly, this isn't new. Quite a few stores with security guards give instructions not to follow possible shoplifters outside of the store, and not to stop them. When I worked at IHOP for a little while I was nearly fired for writing down the license plate of a group of people that skipped out on their bill. A $75 bill. That came out of my pay check.
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rmurray
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Joined: 12 Nov 2010
Posts: 92
Location: Portland, OR
Styles: Shorin ryu

PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's very understandable why Walmart would have that policy. If a Walmart employee straps on an armed robber and someone gets killed who do you think is going to be held liable for the damages. Walmart would much rather absorb the loss of the netbook than pay out to a dead employees family. Plus shootings are bad for business.
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bushido_man96
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Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 28209
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I understand the Wal-Mart side of this, too, but it is kind of unfortunate that these kinds of policies become more commonplace. Its like defending ourselves is becoming a bad thing, and those who do it have to be punished, like those who brought it on them.

At least Wal-Mart is consistent with the enforcment of the policy.

I do commend the actions of the employees, too.
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sensei8
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Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 14983
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Merchandise can be replaced...the employee that was killed by the thief(s) can't be.

Many years ago in Tulsa, a bagger chased the thief's outside of the store after they had stolen some beer. Thief's went to the side of the store and the bagger followed. Just as soon as the bagger rounded the corner...shots rang out and the bagger was killed...over some beer.

Let the thief's go.


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Lupin1
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Joined: 15 Dec 2009
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Location: Texas USA
Styles: Isshinryu

PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bushido_man96 wrote:
Its like defending ourselves is becoming a bad thing, and those who do it have to be punished, like those who brought it on them.


I knew that was true when I was suspended in middle school because some kid punched me in the face. I didn't even hit back, but if i had... I would love to encourage my students to fight back when someone's picking on them, but I would be so fired.
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MasterPain
Black Belt
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Joined: 26 Oct 2010
Posts: 1949
Location: Parts Unknown
Styles: Bujin Bugei Jutsu, Backyard Kali, Satsui no Hadou

PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lupin1 wrote:
bushido_man96 wrote:
Its like defending ourselves is becoming a bad thing, and those who do it have to be punished, like those who brought it on them.


I knew that was true when I was suspended in middle school because some kid punched me in the face. I didn't even hit back, but if i had... I would love to encourage my students to fight back when someone's picking on them, but I would be so fired.


I noticed a kid doing his homework at the gym yesterday. In the health class book there was a chapter on violence. I asked to read it. The words self defense did not exist, but zero tolerance does. In other words we will punish you for defending yourself.

I will agree that in most situations it is best to walk away, or run. However, if you can't get away, crying in the fetal position is not a very good defense. Also they say to tell an adult. Good idea, but which adult? If the book tells kids how to deal with violence and says to tell an adult, it should say when to tell a teacher or call 911. Some adults just do not care. Also what do you do if the violence is abuse? There was no mention of dealing with child abuse. What should a kid do if they tell a teacher and nothing changes?
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The BB of C
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Joined: 11 Feb 2007
Posts: 1264
Location: Orlando, Florida
Styles: Kuk Sool Won, Isshin-ryu, Capoeira, Brazillian Jiu Jutsu, Judo

PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it's very ridiculous that these types of rules are becoming so common. Honestly I protest them at every chance I get. This stuff happens a lot and I feel it's because we don't do anything about it, those who commit crimes feel they can get away with it.
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tallgeese
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Joined: 04 May 2008
Posts: 6852
Location: McHenry County, IL
Styles: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Bujin Bugei Jutsu, Gokei Ryu Kempo Jutsu, MMA, Shootfighting, boxing, kickboxing, JKD, Pekiti Tersia Kali

PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I get the sentiment. I really do. And it it's your own personal properity from your home, have at it. It your stuff, your life, and your wife has no one to sue if you get killed.

However, if you're at work and some dude runs off with merchandise really, why chase him?

It's not your stuff, it's not from someone in real need, and there are policies PROHIBITING you from doing so. That's because if someone gets killed chasing a bad guy, guess what, thier wife can and will sue the store. Now they have to settle or fight it at cost thru the courts.

No one wins.

Not to mention, cops don't really chase guys that often. It's too easy to get ambushed. The bad guy can run wherever he wants without worry, a cop has to slow up, check his corners, watch the enviornment, beconcerned with reacting vs. acting, ect. There's more to it than one would think. If it's done smart.

Think about it past the level of emotion of wanting to get the bad guy:

Was the checker thinking of any of the above things? I doubt it. Even if, by some stroke of sheer luck he was, what recorse did he have if bad guy turns around with a knife? Was the employee armed? Doubtfutful. Did he have back up in the way of other employees running to help him? Probabily not; not if they were smart. How about communication with the store to keep track of where he was and if he were in trouble? Really doubt it.

See, there is a recipie for really bad things to happen here. I get the idea, no one likes bad guys to get away. But the potential cost isn't worth the point.

Now as to the firing, that stinks and might be on the harsh side, but if no message is sent then you basically say it's okay for your employees to put themselvess at risk (not in their description), and put heavy liability on the store. The management can't put their stamp of approval on that.

Now, if you're a cop and it's in your job description to do dangereous things from time to time, then you'd best do it. There are mechanisims in place to deal with the action and the potential consequence.

So bottom line, I get the sentiment, but practicality it's not so out of line for the store.
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bushido_man96
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Joined: 31 Mar 2006
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Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Sun Mar 20, 2011 5:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MasterPain wrote:
Lupin1 wrote:
bushido_man96 wrote:
Its like defending ourselves is becoming a bad thing, and those who do it have to be punished, like those who brought it on them.


I knew that was true when I was suspended in middle school because some kid punched me in the face. I didn't even hit back, but if i had... I would love to encourage my students to fight back when someone's picking on them, but I would be so fired.


I noticed a kid doing his homework at the gym yesterday. In the health class book there was a chapter on violence. I asked to read it. The words self defense did not exist, but zero tolerance does. In other words we will punish you for defending yourself.


Yep. This is happening, and its bad. The punishment for bullying isn't severe enough to deter those who do it. Suspend them from school? They don't care, because they likely don't want to be there anyway.

I tell my kids to not put up with it, and if they have to fight, go for it. I'll take care of the teachers. They may get in trouble at school, but they won't with me, if they are in the right.

tallgeese wrote:
I get the sentiment. I really do. And it it's your own personal properity from your home, have at it. It your stuff, your life, and your wife has no one to sue if you get killed.

However, if you're at work and some dude runs off with merchandise really, why chase him?

It's not your stuff, it's not from someone in real need, and there are policies PROHIBITING you from doing so. That's because if someone gets killed chasing a bad guy, guess what, thier wife can and will sue the store. Now they have to settle or fight it at cost thru the courts.

No one wins.


I agree here, when it comes down to property. In this sue-happy world of people who lack accountability, this will happen. Possessions, unless they are yours, from your home, aren't really worth it. I'm sure WalMart has some clause in their insurance to cover loss like that.

I do remember while I was in the academy watching a video not of a theft, but of a domestic battery in progress, and the convenience store attendants just stood by and watched. I think they did call the cops, but they did not intervene with the beating. The reason was because this store branch has a policy that states that its employees will not intervene in fights like this. Property, I can understand. But, watching this video really got to me. If it meant my job, I'd probably be willing to give it up to stop a physical beating. But, I'm sure they had the policy in place for much the same reason WalMart has this policy above.
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