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Hawkmoon
Pre-Black Belt
Pre-Black Belt

Joined: 17 Jun 2013
Posts: 891
Location: MK in the UK
Styles: Kyokushin

PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2014 7:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not sure this is right thread to post the following to...so I'll post and let it go on to its conclusion!
Sorry an essay and one about a behavior I have little tolerance for, and even less understanding!

In another thread a comment was made that fits like a glove something I dislike with a real vengeance and and automatic default desire to 'go hunting for' and stomp on!
I have seen in various clubs (no specific Ryu all different but all the same behavior) I have been a victim of this as well in my years , and always always see memories from school where the 'bullies' did exactly this sort of thing, because it was fun.

The comment read:
Quote:
Guys who don't understand the significant difference between contact conditioning and kicking and punching the snot out of each other.


We have a couple (and very specifically one student) who thinks we the club don't see them (or him) being such idiots!

With regards to this main guy in this group, he is famous for holding a beginner in a corner with all one lesson to his name under his belt as he fought with him...(beat the snot out of him)
This guy is also famous for his defiance to Sensei when he was asked to demonstrate 10kyu to some other beginners, by refusing to do so.
(...and then I found out recently)
He knocked an elderly member of the club out the other week when I was off ill. (I really mean elderly, the guy is 63!) (we have 3 students over 60, we are proud of them and there determination, passion and spirit)
Now this little gem pushes me off the deep end!


Now he has come back (I'll guess he has licked his wounds all better now!) and he has taken a clear step towards creating a little group of followers, and so a clear dislike to anyone that doesn't mean the requirements to a member of this little group.

This means we do not get along!

(I know this is wrong I should not do it, no one benefits from it, its a waste of both his and my time...but to ignore it and accommodate him is to give him control, to submit to his way, (as a bully he gets the win), which to my mind is the last thing he needs and will only worsen things)

I've taken to repeating his behavior back to him, I copy him when we work together.

So if I see he stands static when we are to practice a set combination, to explore how it feels works, to explore how to defend move block, counter etc and in that action spoil the other students lesson, the only winner is him as he gets the practice they do not!
When we work together I will stand static and spoil his moment!

If we perform partner based resistance work he will not yield he will lock out and stop the other from completing the movement, I will lock out and not let him complete the movement.

When working with a person he will take to strikes that are not allowed, to inflict more pain, yet will openly complain that (whoever) hit him to hard.
Now here I will not copy him, this is not a safe game to play, so I will do opposite here, my strike are like the strikes of a points fighter, as in strike - touch -out!
He can't complain there is no contact, everyone can here there was no contact.....and this I've found upsets him more!

Now reading accounts in this book or that book or looking over notes of this or that master about his days as a student, there are some hints or (rare as they are) references to such students being banned, or singled out for what I will describe as special 'humility 101' treatment.

Is this considered traditional?
(Not him, the books the history and what was done 'back in the day')
It was done for ages in history, so....
if it is is it one we keep or modify or drop....?
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A human life gains luster and strength only when it is polished and tempered.
Sosai Masutatsu Oyama (1923 - 1994) Founder of Kyokushin Karate.
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hammer
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 361

Styles: Kyokushin, TKD

PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2014 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hawkmoon wrote:
Not sure this is right thread to post the following to...so I'll post and let it go on to its conclusion!
Sorry an essay and one about a behavior I have little tolerance for, and even less understanding!

...


OK, so is this person still allowed in the dojo and if so why?
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Hawkmoon
Pre-Black Belt
Pre-Black Belt

Joined: 17 Jun 2013
Posts: 891
Location: MK in the UK
Styles: Kyokushin

PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2014 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hammer wrote:
Hawkmoon wrote:
Not sure this is right thread to post the following to...so I'll post and let it go on to its conclusion!
Sorry an essay and one about a behavior I have little tolerance for, and even less understanding!

...


OK, so is this person still allowed in the dojo and if so why?


The behavior IMO has been bubbling under the surface for a while, something I believe I detected in him when we met the first time. I was then as he now demonstrates (and has admitted to the club previously) certain he was the school bully but the open defiance this is new from him and not understood by anyone that suffers his focus or lack of it!

Not sure if there is a more personal thing going on with him that is spilling over into training, no idea, I like him am a kyu grade and not the club owner, so not my place to punish or correct.
Both Shihan and sensei are working on him, giving him a fare chance to redeem himself. They do watch and intervene as and when required as we have all been told (repeatedly so) to simply stop at such times and call them over.

The behavior is driving more emotion in me than it really should, of that I have no doubt, but as I mention it is nothing I have not seen in other clubs I have worked with over the years. (to various degrees and in various combinations)
Other clubs dealt with such behavior one way and another, what is done here is not unlike some of these and close to what others have done.


My detail in that post, emotion driven, true as that is, is detail given as it is a perfect example to me regarding discipline, order and no matter what culture we are from respect in the dojo and people who fit the bully profile can be found.
In MA some of the schools came about because of this very reasoning.
So the idea was to explore 'a' way such behavior was dealt with traditionally.
(Books and reading and so on of this or that teacher)

I tried to start a less aggressive exploration into tradition regarding the GI earlier, but it seems we all think the same way with regarding it!
So I thought I'd try a more emotive example , but like I say I'm not sure this thread and that example is the best way of exploring what is or is not tradition or traditional.
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A human life gains luster and strength only when it is polished and tempered.
Sosai Masutatsu Oyama (1923 - 1994) Founder of Kyokushin Karate.
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 14265
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 9:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Imho,

A Sensei shouldn't demonstrate like ways of students that aren't model students. No. Counsel them in private so that said student understands all expectations and that there's no ambiguity whatsoever. Student still doesn't want to comply with said expectations, then suspend said student. Student is then allowed to return, and then still continues in a disrespectful manner, then expel, thus, ban said student.

Resistant training is very important, but the training is meant to also be safe for all before it can be effective.

When said student acts rogue on the floor, that's no reason to copy said students actions to show said student what it feels like. It borders on abuse from said Sensei. That to, should never be tolerated.

Take the appropriate and consistent measures towards said student(s) when said student(s) try to dictate anything, and I mean anything, on the floor. The floor is for everyone, but when things like this are happening on the floor, that's when the floor becomes mine, and mine alone. I will not share my authority with any said student that's not meeting said expectations.

This said student should be dealt with professionally, and no other way. For a Sensei to lower themselves to the inappropriate actions of said disrupting student(s) to teach them a lesson, and/or to show them what it feels like isn't commendable at all. Especially in todays world.

How it was done yesteryear, isn't how it should be done today! Not with the laws of the land today. Legal law suits and the like are being handed out like free candy at a carnival.

Discipline is one thing, but an overall disregard towards an instructors obligations and oath, no matter how silent or how loud they might be, which is to protect ALL students, no matter what. Discipline and how it should be handled is a thin line. One that mustn't be ignored at all, but understood that what stands on that said thin line, is respect. And if a student shows no regards and/or respect, the Sensei should show even more respect and/or regards to said student.

We've, instructors, an obligation to our students to teach and guide them in a respectful tone at all times. Counsel, then suspend, and then ban, if need be, however, it must be consistent across the board. From day one, let said student(s) know what's expected of them and what's allowed and what's not allowed, and let there be no misunderstanding. The Sensei is always the boss both on the floor and off the floor at all times.

Imho.



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Hawkmoon
Pre-Black Belt
Pre-Black Belt

Joined: 17 Jun 2013
Posts: 891
Location: MK in the UK
Styles: Kyokushin

PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 6:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

guys (all) please remember I'm a kyu not Dan grade!

I and I alone 'copy' him and I accept what I'm doing is not the right thing to do, for all of my desire to show respect, honor, polite friendly behavior, this is a 'personality' demon I've yet to master...and to be honest I'm not winning that battle just now.

Sensei and Shihan I suspect are working with him privately more than we see or realize when we witness the public interventions.
I feel a huge sense of shame as a guy of 40'odd years to be in a room of other 'adults' and I see one of these adults acting out like this!
Like I say maybe there is more going off in his life at the moment, he was never so public before, it was clear earlier that this sort of behavior bubbled underneath the surface.
I could detect this potential in him, but it never came out I've been back coming up to three years, and only now in these last few months (4-5 mths) as this surfaced.


To add to the thought direction I'm trying to explore/follow here, I picked up my son form his club the other day to hear his sensei ban one of the students for a year!
Punishment that I later found out was issued to address defiance and bullying!

The reason given: "Its how we deal with it, it is how this behavior has always been dealt with!"

So over the years I've seen different clubs deal with defiance as follows:
    Ban
    exercise
    private correction
    public correction
    chat with mum and dad (If applicable)
    suspension

With regards to suspensions, the students who are asked to leave many tended to not come back! The few that did return, many went on to have a good MA career.

To refer to the books and so on I hinted at, traditionally such behavior was dealt with by:
    Exercise
    private correction
    public correction


The rest of the list seems to me to be adopted form the modern world 20th - 21 st century culture! Not traditional in the MA world.

With respect to the bullying aspect of the example:
    Ban
    exercise
    private correction
    public correction
    chat with mum and dad (If applicable)
    suspension
    to be paired with a better, trusted student able to push back (with interest if required)


The last entry above is something noted in books, and the writings of this or that master. I've seen it in the real world only, to my memory, three or four times, and never at the senior (adult) level.

One book I read only the other day "The Way of Knockdown" describes the Shihans using Shinai on the students to push them to work harder and punish them for less than 100% effort!
http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Way-Knockdown-Gary-Chamberlain-ebook/dp/B00CMQYP6K

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A human life gains luster and strength only when it is polished and tempered.
Sosai Masutatsu Oyama (1923 - 1994) Founder of Kyokushin Karate.
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SteyrAUG
Orange Belt
Orange Belt

Joined: 25 Feb 2014
Posts: 111


PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hawkmoon wrote:

In another thread a comment was made that fits like a glove something I dislike with a real vengeance and and automatic default desire to 'go hunting for' and stomp on!


Since the quote was from one of my posts I feel the need to address something. I wasn't referring to bullying within the dojo, I was referring to guys who "cooperatively" go "gung ho" and think going hard core during contact conditioning drills will give them double or triple the benefit when in actually they get less benefit from those who do them correctly.

Regarding your issues of students who go looking for a live punching bag wearing a gi to make themselves feel better, they usually find themselves with a new regular training partner...me. This gives them the opportunity to learn and correct and helps me decide if they will continue to be a student.

After that I usually put them with very low ranked students who don't have a lot of power and ability. I make sure they understand they are responsible for making sure the low rank student "learns the drill properly" and that THEY are "responsible for the safety" of the low ranking student.

I have found this to be the most successful way of dealing with the issue when it comes up to date. Now that I no longer teach commercially and can be very selective about who I accept as a personal student it really isn't something I deal with anymore.
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Hawkmoon
Pre-Black Belt
Pre-Black Belt

Joined: 17 Jun 2013
Posts: 891
Location: MK in the UK
Styles: Kyokushin

PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 4:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Were good!!
The comment struck a nerve with me, like I say I have little tolerance and even less understand for such behavior.
(A personality demon I've yet to master!)
The 'bully' element here was not the driving force or point but rather supporting detail to the defiance, the lack of respect.
As I said I'm not sure its the right place, and even now I'm not sure its a good example to use here.

You explain...

Quote:
"...referring to guys who "cooperatively" go "gung ho" and think going hard core during contact conditioning drills will give them double or triple the benefit ..."

Is the reasoning for me offering the example at all, it was the way I looked at the situation and so decided to made it an example.

No worries were good, no harm no foul!

It is what happens, this guy opens up, and other break down (the beginner) the older slower members suffer. Hence wrong as I am to do take the actions I do, I 'spoil his session, and work with the others, taking away his attempt to gain the upper hand.

The bullying aspect is possibly another discussion for another thread. The time I've spent in other clubs shows me its not a unique to one system or area but rather a human thing, a thing that many clubs suffer. This behavior be it done in the locker room, the dojo or both is school yard in nature but a human trait none the less!

One of the guys here at work goes to a fencing club (foils & sabers) and has a simulate story with regards to one of the members of that club. Here the other guy hides (if that is the best description to use) behind the fact that he is under 16. The result is he does things he should not and everyone else do not react because he is young.

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A human life gains luster and strength only when it is polished and tempered.
Sosai Masutatsu Oyama (1923 - 1994) Founder of Kyokushin Karate.
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FangPwnsAll7
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 11 Jul 2012
Posts: 377
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Styles: Tang Soo Do

PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

At my dojo, everyone gets treated with the same respect regardless of your rank. It should always be that way.
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ineluki
Yellow Belt
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Joined: 06 Jul 2004
Posts: 57


PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hawkmoon wrote:

Is this considered traditional?


I doubt there ever was a traditional "standard" (btw are we talking about specific MAs?) which everyone followed.

I'm pretty sure the reactions always ran from
- telling people to leave
- giving them special treatment until they learned their lesson or left
- waiting for the other students to learn to handle the situation (and fight back)

Anyway, I'm not really fond of doing something just because it is traditional, some traditions have been abandoned with good reason.
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Spartacus Maximus
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 01 Jun 2014
Posts: 1703

Styles: Shorin ryu

PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have seen very strict almost military type dojos and family-like dojos. I would describe my actual dojo as more like a family. There is discipline and duties but they are more implicit rather than explicit. I understand them as follows:

1: Maximum effort until practise time ends
2: Always accept training advice from your seniors
3: Help your juniors whenever asked
4: Practise only what sensei says until he ask you to do something else.
5: Never interrupt anyone's practise for any reason.
6. Do not waste your time in the dojo. There is always something to work on.
7. Respect the dojo and treat all your fellows with kindness and appropriate courtesy.
8. Never use any equipment without sensei's permission.
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