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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2468
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 Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 11:22 am Post subject: FAST vs SLOW |
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Fast vs slow when fighting.
Accuracy and timing is always present and important but I cannot help notice that speed can become overlooked by many martial artists, as techniques, kicks and punches become lost and miss (terribly) while trying to hit fast and those that get knocked out from not moving quick enough.
My personal take on this subject is to move at the right time in the right moment. Sometimes moving slowly can throw off the opponent's rhyme. Bruce Lee would actually stop moving for an instant before striking the opponent very fast.
What are your preferences? |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16420
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Tue May 09, 2017 1:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Fast vs slow when fighting...What are your preferences? |
Both!!
They're both equally important, imho, to me. At their own given time, whenever it's appropriate, and no time sooner.
One way doesn't over shadow the other, nor should it ever.
Allow the moment to reveal itself as to which one to act upon, and not until then because premature reactions doom results.
_________________
**Proof is on the floor!!! |
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo
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| Posted: Wed May 10, 2017 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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I would say the situation dictates your speed.
_________________
The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll |
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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2468
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| Posted: Sat May 13, 2017 2:44 pm Post subject: |
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| MatsuShinshii wrote: |
| I would say the situation dictates your speed. |
Sometimes the style can dictate the speed.
Had a good habit in one style that was considered bad in another; example.
While sparring in JKD/Wing Chun mentality, against/in TKD classes, the CI was constantly complaining that I didn't move away quick enough when attacked.
The reason I didn't move quick enough for the CI was that I wasn't falling for or reacting to feint's.
Also there were those that attacked at such a long distance, that their techniques wasn't worth reacting to, due to not being of any threat.
Ironically by my piers, I was described as the guy that moves very fast.
Speed, being faster than the opponent is an advantage, combining it with efficient techniques and expert timing is something worth pursuing. |
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tallgeese
Black Belt
Joined: 04 May 2008
Posts: 6879
Location: McHenry County, IL
Styles: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Bujin Bugei Jutsu, Gokei Ryu Kempo Jutsu, MMA, Shootfighting, boxing, kickboxing, JKD, Pekiti Tersia Kali
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| Posted: Sat May 13, 2017 4:55 pm Post subject: |
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First let's make certain we're discussing apples to apples. Are we discussing a training environment or actual fighting? If it's training, slow is critical to learning the mechanics of a movement.
Now, if we're talking about taking a tool we understand and employing it during a fight I rarely see slow being functional. When it's time to put a tool to work, under stress and for high stakes, it has to be first and more. To make this happen, speed is a critical attribute. This is driven by physiological factors and proper, efficient movement.
Now, timing is a different issue. Timing dictates where I will place a full speed strike in the tempo of the contest. I might need to range back from a strike that is already ahead of me on timing. There is no speed that will catch up if I'm behind the effect of the strike. If I range, wait for it to pass its threat threshold, and then initiate that timing, not speed. I will still execute that strike at full speed, just on a timing beat that is advantageous to me, not my opponent.
This is something I didn't fully understand until studying the FMAs in a bit of depth. But timing and speed, while they work and in hand, are not the same thing. Timing may be manipulated, but speed is pretty much alway mandatory once the decision to attack has been made.
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http://alphajiujitsu.com/
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJhRVuwbm__LwXPvFMReMww |
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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2468
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| Posted: Sat May 13, 2017 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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| tallgeese wrote: |
First let's make certain we're discussing apples to apples. Are we discussing a training environment or actual fighting? If it's training, slow is critical to learning the mechanics of a movement.
Now, if we're talking about taking a tool we understand and employing it during a fight I rarely see slow being functional. When it's time to put a tool to work, under stress and for high stakes, it has to be first and more. To make this happen, speed is a critical attribute. This is driven by physiological factors and proper, efficient movement.
Now, timing is a different issue. Timing dictates where I will place a full speed strike in the tempo of the contest. I might need to range back from a strike that is already ahead of me on timing. There is no speed that will catch up if I'm behind the effect of the strike. If I range, wait for it to pass its threat threshold, and then initiate that timing, not speed. I will still execute that strike at full speed, just on a timing beat that is advantageous to me, not my opponent.
This is something I didn't fully understand until studying the FMAs in a bit of depth. But timing and speed, while they work and in hand, are not the same thing. Timing may be manipulated, but speed is pretty much alway mandatory once the decision to attack has been made. |
From a Wing Chun perspective and I'm not commenting on behalf of the other two million practioners.
There is what is called "Touch, Sensitivity, Neutrality and Speed"
The touch part is Intel and Info usually intercepting, deflecting, controlling and or trapping, travelling at a faster rate of speed than the opponent to take the advantage of surprise and positioning.
The speed part is also connected with the touch aspect, deciphering all the information intuitively and acting instinctively; wedging oneself directly in to the opponent while simultaneously striking first, with as many follow-up strikes as possible.
There is also a bridge factor, that connects sensitivity, this is when two opponents make physical contact, no matter how brief this is, information is exchanged, the Wing Chun practitioner, through proper training should be able to use this information and act accordingly, depending on pressure and energy directions from the opponent.
Nutrality makes the Wing Chun fighter aware of the benefits of not over reacting or under reacting as they are equally ineffective and inefficient just as being too slow or too fast.
Being slow implies missing opportunities as being too fast implies lack of accuracy and control.
Bruce Lee's take on this was "Don't give up power for speed"
Yes, in the classroom environment slow is necessary to make corrections and comprehension easier as practicing too fast isn't helpful for beginners.
Yes, in a real fight situation, it is all action and reaction, without any other considerations, other than, being responsive and in the moment, just isn't the time or place to be contemplative on the subject of speed and timing; to be or not to be, fast or slow is (Out of) the question! |
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TJ-Jitsu
Blue Belt
Joined: 30 Sep 2014
Posts: 316
Location: PA
Styles: Gracie Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai
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| Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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I find people make things much more complex than they need to be. Consider there are two general ways to be fast- one is athleticism and another is positioning (technique).
Superior position gives the illusion of speed. Examples include boxers cutting angles and grapplers getting on top of someone. Any technique is best learned practicing as slow as possible- it allows you to spot the the weakness very easily. As I get better at a particular technique I try to do it as slow as possible, and this includes training too. If you don't know why you're being fast in terms of positioning chances are good you're relying on athleticism. If you understand the positioning as Irma pertains to a fight, then you don't need to be athletic.
So if you want some zen knowledge the way you learn to be fast is by practicing slow. |
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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2468
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| Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 2:39 am Post subject: |
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| TJ-Jitsu wrote: |
I find people make things much more complex than they need to be. Consider there are two general ways to be fast- one is athleticism and another is positioning (technique).
Superior position gives the illusion of speed. Examples include boxers cutting angles and grapplers getting on top of someone. Any technique is best learned practicing as slow as possible- it allows you to spot the the weakness very easily. As I get better at a particular technique I try to do it as slow as possible, and this includes training too. If you don't know why you're being fast in terms of positioning chances are good you're relying on athleticism. If you understand the positioning as Irma pertains to a fight, then you don't need to be athletic.
So if you want some zen knowledge the way you learn to be fast is by practicing slow. |
Absolutely agree with you TJ Jitsu.
This is why Tai Chi Chuan is practiced slow. |
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TJ-Jitsu
Blue Belt
Joined: 30 Sep 2014
Posts: 316
Location: PA
Styles: Gracie Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai
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| Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 8:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Alan Armstrong wrote: |
| TJ-Jitsu wrote: |
I find people make things much more complex than they need to be. Consider there are two general ways to be fast- one is athleticism and another is positioning (technique).
Superior position gives the illusion of speed. Examples include boxers cutting angles and grapplers getting on top of someone. Any technique is best learned practicing as slow as possible- it allows you to spot the the weakness very easily. As I get better at a particular technique I try to do it as slow as possible, and this includes training too. If you don't know why you're being fast in terms of positioning chances are good you're relying on athleticism. If you understand the positioning as Irma pertains to a fight, then you don't need to be athletic.
So if you want some zen knowledge the way you learn to be fast is by practicing slow. |
Absolutely agree with you TJ Jitsu.
This is why Tai Chi Chuan is practiced slow. |
Did we just agree on something?
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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2468
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| Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2017 5:51 am Post subject: |
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| TJ-Jitsu wrote: |
| Alan Armstrong wrote: |
| TJ-Jitsu wrote: |
I find people make things much more complex than they need to be. Consider there are two general ways to be fast- one is athleticism and another is positioning (technique).
Superior position gives the illusion of speed. Examples include boxers cutting angles and grapplers getting on top of someone. Any technique is best learned practicing as slow as possible- it allows you to spot the the weakness very easily. As I get better at a particular technique I try to do it as slow as possible, and this includes training too. If you don't know why you're being fast in terms of positioning chances are good you're relying on athleticism. If you understand the positioning as Irma pertains to a fight, then you don't need to be athletic.
So if you want some zen knowledge the way you learn to be fast is by practicing slow. |
Absolutely agree with you TJ Jitsu.
This is why Tai Chi Chuan is practiced slow. |
Did we just agree on something?
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Yes we did and it is about time LOL |
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on the post.
