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HG
Orange Belt
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Joined: 15 Jul 2006
Posts: 137

Styles: Hung-Ga

PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 11:39 am    Post subject: Re: Fighting a Boxer Reply with quote

shaolin10 wrote:
Well anyways today a friend of mine was showing me some defenses against a Tang Soo Do fighter and we mocked sparred for about a minute and I was unprepared for how fast his hands were and did not see an opening or a proper way to defend against his attacks.

Can someone give me any ideas on how to defend against a boxer?

He's a friend & you were only mock sparring. Speed will always prevail in situations like this. Use speed techniques to counter his. Power or causing pain isn't an issue so just be real fast.

If it was for real then you have to stop his speed. Pain works well, interupt his combos & strike hard. You might get lucky and put him down. At the very least a hard hit will get him thinking about defense.

Boxer two weapons - respect the hands.
Martial artist nine weapons - this is your advantage over him.
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
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Joined: 31 Mar 2006
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Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My dad was telling me years ago about a sparring match he had with a boxer. He was in TKD at the time, and was pretty decent. He said that towards the end of the match, things were beginning to kind of close in around him (like he was getting knocked out). He said he got some kicks on him, even some head kicks, but the guy was just tough. He said his hands were very good, and he was quick.
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elbows_and_knees
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 24 Jun 2005
Posts: 1795

Styles: thai boxing, grappling

PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 1:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Fighting a Boxer Reply with quote

HG wrote:
He's a friend & you were only mock sparring. Speed will always prevail in situations like this. Use speed techniques to counter his. Power or causing pain isn't an issue so just be real fast.


you realize that boxers have some of the fastest hands and footwork around, right?

Quote:
Boxer two weapons - respect the hands.
Martial artist nine weapons - this is your advantage over him.


two weapons? says who? Any boxer has at least 7. What do you think "dirty boxing" is about? freddie roach - one of tyson's former trainer's has been quoted as saying "if a hook misses, the elbow lands"
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Rick_72
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Joined: 09 Aug 2006
Posts: 213

Styles: Shorin Ryu

PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok I'm actually coming to terms with a similar dilema right now, actually the opposite. I was a boxer (very amature, mostly just a lot of training) prior to taking up Martial Arts, and I don't think many of the poster's here are really understanding the fundamental differences in boxing vs. TMA.

First and foremost, boxing is a sport, TMA is arguably a sport and self defence systems. The conditioning required to be any good at boxing is grueling at best, TMA doesn't require the same level of conditioning (most schools).

Someone said boxing has two basic target locations (head and mid torso), and TMA has three (head, torso, and legs). I would argue that TMA has many more target locations than that. In boxing you score points by landing an undeflected or slipped strike to you opponants face, while in TMA you score points for any area on your opponants head (even the back, which will earn you a warning in a boxing ring). In boxing the kidney area is strickly off limits, in many TMA kumite tourny's I've been to that area is open season. This is just to name a few.

Due to my previous boxing training, I find myself leaving targets, that I've never trained significantly to protect, wide open, and taking a beating on them.

Another problem that I'm working on is tucking my elbows in tight to my body. This is standard boxing 101, just like tucking your chin. The problem with it is that a fighter still gets the wind knocked out of they lungs from side and round kicks, because from their shoulder to their elbow is laying right up against their ribs, and that makes blocking those kicks nearly impossible if your don't see them in time to move out of the way.

If your a traditional martial artist, sparring with a boxer, you have to take away the things that he know's. Keep him inside of your stance, quick waist level kicks work well for this, because he wants to be in position to pepper you with a jab, and fire the heavy artillery. If its someone your going to spar with a lot, learn his tells. Keep in mind, and this is something that many have stated, boxers train to get hit (because in boxing your absolutely going to), TMA trains to block or get out of the way, when your fighting a boxer....your going to get hit, protect your chin and your bread basket.
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elbows_and_knees
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Joined: 24 Jun 2005
Posts: 1795

Styles: thai boxing, grappling

PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rick_72 wrote:
First and foremost, boxing is a sport, TMA is arguably a sport and self defence systems. The conditioning required to be any good at boxing is grueling at best, TMA doesn't require the same level of conditioning (most schools).


the sport aspect is what makes boxing so formidable as a martial art.

Quote:
Someone said boxing has two basic target locations (head and mid torso), and TMA has three (head, torso, and legs). I would argue that TMA has many more target locations than that.


it's all simplified. there are many locations, but all of those locations on either the head, torso or legs, no? same with a boxer - solar plexus, liver, kidneys - all on the torso. So technically, they have more than two targets. forehead, chin, jaw, nose, temple - all on the head. boxers have several options as well, but all of the locations are in those two simplified areas, the head and torso.


Quote:
In boxing the kidney area is strickly off limits, in many TMA kumite tourny's I've been to that area is open season. This is just to name a few.


it's only illegal if the ref sees it. that is part of dirty boxing. also rabbit punches, which are strikes to the base of the neck.

Quote:
Due to my previous boxing training, I find myself leaving targets, that I've never trained significantly to protect, wide open, and taking a beating on them.


you also said you were a newb to boxing. One of our guys boxed for 10 years, and he leaves nothing open, other than his legs.

Quote:
Another problem that I'm working on is tucking my elbows in tight to my body. This is standard boxing 101, just like tucking your chin. The problem with it is that a fighter still gets the wind knocked out of they lungs from side and round kicks, because from their shoulder to their elbow is laying right up against their ribs, and that makes blocking those kicks nearly impossible if your don't see them in time to move out of the way.


you shouldn't be blocking kicks with your arms anyway. However, I don't have this problem. Perhaps you aren't used to absorbing kicks yet?

Quote:
If your a traditional martial artist, sparring with a boxer, you have to take away the things that he know's. Keep him inside of your stance, quick waist level kicks work well for this, because he wants to be in position to pepper you with a jab, and fire the heavy artillery.


maybe. it depends on his style. If he's a slugger, he just wants to come straight in. If he's an outboxer, he's gonna stay outside of you, etc. there is no one strategy, as there are several different styles of boxers.


Quote:
If its someone your going to spar with a lot, learn his tells. Keep in mind, and this is something that many have stated, boxers train to get hit (because in boxing your absolutely going to), TMA trains to block or get out of the way, when your fighting a boxer....your going to get hit, protect your chin and your bread basket.


they don't train to get hit - they train to evade. blocking is too slow. Blocking a flurry from a boxer will get you KOed because you won't be able to block them all. Evasion is primary. If you can't evade, parry. if you can't parry, block. Boxers spar with contact, which is what conditions them to take hits. point sparring seen in many schools will not do it.
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Menjo
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Joined: 27 Jun 2005
Posts: 1786
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rick_72 wrote:
First and foremost, boxing is a sport, TMA is arguably a sport and self defence systems. The conditioning required to be any good at boxing is grueling at best, TMA doesn't require the same level of conditioning (most schools).


Thatís all relative, I've not a lot of say for boxing but I do think this:

By thinking that any conditioning is ever enough for TMA I think is the dominant factor that limits a lot of TMA
.
Firstly, it isn't enitryl what the school requires, its about the individual.
Whats even worse is that some people think that because they don't do it in their school that itís not applicable to them.
If TMA is about being the best you can be, than training the hardest possible is the minimum, not what point sparring competitions show.
I actually train constantly with a friend of mine who takes MMA and I force myself to only accept training twice as hard than what my opponent may be, if I don't succed, thats more the motivation. Success in real TMA isn't beating others, therefore, to beat yourself, you require the most you can do, and that will never be enough.
True TMA requires more than any one person can ever do, this has created some grueling workouts for me, which include training from others mixed with my training.

Any less than this severly limits a practitioner (In my opinion).

elbows_and_knees wrote:

they don't train to get hit - they train to evade. blocking is too slow. Blocking a flurry from a boxer will get you KOed because you won't be able to block them all.


If you are successful with one real block, than that is enough to initiate a counter attack, or it wasn't a proper block, simply blocking all of them would indeed like you said get you knocked out. If you block and don't counter effectivly, then the block failed, unless you have some other intention.
A block properly applied is either effective or not, speed is only relative to your opponent. If there is a difference in skill(them being more skilled) and one blocks regardless, than it wasn't properly applied(unless you have another intention). Like you said, evading is effective, and is used by alot of MA as a great alternative.
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elbows_and_knees
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Joined: 24 Jun 2005
Posts: 1795

Styles: thai boxing, grappling

PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Menjo wrote:

Firstly, it isn't enitryl what the school requires, its about the individual.


that's EXACTLY what the problem is. the style SHOULD dictate it. I can take any given person I coach and through regular training - without additional outside training - they will be able to get in a ring and hold their own. The training that is inherent in the style makes it that way. TMA is not like that. the training prepares you for the rigors of extended length fighting. TMA does not, because that's not what it was designed for. A student should still train on their own, but the style should prepare them regardless. The only arts I've seen that have this right are sport arts - judo, bjj, muay thai, etc. The only TMA that I've seen like this are capoeira and olympic style tkd.


Quote:
True TMA requires more than any one person can ever do, this has created some grueling workouts for me, which include training from others mixed with my training.


not really. that is your own self imposed requirement, not a requirement of TMA.


Quote:
If you are successful with one real block, than that is enough to initiate a counter attack, or it wasn't a proper block, simply blocking all of them would indeed like you said get you knocked out. If you block and don't counter effectivly, then the block failed, unless you have some other intention.


If is a really big word. you have two assumptions here:

1. the if - IF you are successful with a "real" (whatever that means) block.
2. that your counter actually does some damage - it may not.

Also, some of the more often used blocks, like the outside and inside blocks, leave you horribly open. I do this all the time to one of our guys who trained shotokan. I jab to his face. He does an inside block. I jab again. he blocks. I fake the jab, and he blocks - I loop my hand around and hook punch him in the jaw, as that block leaves your face wide open.
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Menjo
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Joined: 27 Jun 2005
Posts: 1786
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

elbows_and_knees wrote:
Menjo wrote:

Firstly, it isn't enitryl what the school requires, its about the individual.


that's EXACTLY what the problem is. the style SHOULD dictate it. I can take any given person I coach and through regular training - without additional outside training - they will be able to get in a ring and hold their own. The training that is inherent in the style makes it that way. TMA is not like that. the training prepares you for the rigors of extended length fighting. TMA does not, because that's not what it was designed for. A student should still train on their own, but the style should prepare them regardless. The only arts I've seen that have this right are sport arts - judo, bjj, muay thai, etc. The only TMA that I've seen like this are capoeira and olympic style tkd.


Who says it should?
Outside training is exactly what the real training is, thats why it is a different way of life, it isn't limited to the ring or training location, or the fighters desire to beat others. This is the real difference I see in these arts.
The student is forced to become better only by themselves, so they are motivated by the how much the student wants to improve, the the harder the student works, the harder the instructor drives them. This cycle is difficult as the student has only their own willpower to rely on. Sports are different, as progress is only measured to others, which then in turn eventually limits it to others.
This is not to say that TMA completely ignores everyone around them.


The training which is inherent, are the tools the instructor gives to the student. Class is a time where a student can learn new points, or re focus old ones.
Any person who has the right type of conditioning for a long time can develop the ability to endure extended fights and inability to last extended fights is a result rather than the actual problem of self motivation or poor teaching.

elbows_and_knees wrote:

not really. that is your own self imposed requirement, not a requirement of TMA.
.


Right, my self imposed requirement is the requirement of TMA training for me.
Since training is a way of life, each person has a different way of life, therefore TMA is what that person makes of it.
Thats why once again, the practitioner has to treat it seriously to get serious results.
TMA is designed according to ones own needs, and is not completely based on others.

elbows_and_knees wrote:

If is a really big word. you have two assumptions here:

1. the if - IF you are successful with a "real" (whatever that means) block.
2. that your counter actually does some damage - it may not.

Also, some of the more often used blocks, like the outside and inside blocks, leave you horribly open. I do this all the time to one of our guys who trained shotokan. I jab to his face. He does an inside block. I jab again. he blocks. I fake the jab, and he blocks - I loop my hand around and hook punch him in the jaw, as that block leaves your face wide open.


Well, one, you can't make an action without some sort of decision.
You must commit to what you decide to use.
Secondly, the counter may indeed not do damage, but never attacking the opponent because its not 100 percent sure it will do damage is dangerous thinking to one self.
The attack my not be a counter, but in some way or another, you must assume confidence in yourself eventaully.

Now this final point is where I always get frustrated with, with all respect to the person you trained with.
Blocks are a training development method.
Blocks are not the primary way of stoping an attack. Blocks are meant as a way in case one cannot use evading or using a technique to get there first.
Simply using blocks against an opponent in a ring isn't a effective way to do anything, except lose. Blocking like this will let your opponent find a weakness, like you said how you use your method. Blocks are meant for developmen of training, and if not properly applied, they can hinder some peoples fighting mindset.
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Last edited by Menjo on Sat Oct 21, 2006 12:40 pm; edited 1 time in total
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MizuRyu
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Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 381
Location: Michigan
Styles: Present: Judo/Boxing, Past: Ryu-Te, Tang Soo Do, Wing Chun, BJJ

PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I fully agree with the blocking thing. I've never, in my whole history of fighting, seen more than 2 blocks be effective. I HAVE however, seen a block immediatly followed with aggressive counter-attack be effective. I think that's one of the biggest mistakes of modern stylists: blocking until something 'magical' happens. Personally, if I see a hook coming I'm going to stop hit them in the shoulder and step in, and go ape, not inside block it and wait for my second chance to block another. Blocks are a way of building coordination, strengthening forearms for slip ups, and understanding forces in an attack. Parries are what'll save your face, not blocks.

All of my martial arts career I've dealt with ridiculous blocking drills and schemes, and only until my real venture have I seen what the true purpose of these things are. In Ryu-Te, we're constantly moving, evading, and parrying with 'snake' type motions. The snake motions are nothing more than soft, distal blocks with open hands. We have all sorts of people from all sorts of backgrounds in this school and it's proved itself amongst them to be FAR more effective than blocking, at any skill level.

Of course, I can't speak for every fighter, just myself and those I've fought/seen fight.
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elbows_and_knees
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Joined: 24 Jun 2005
Posts: 1795

Styles: thai boxing, grappling

PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Menjo wrote:
Who says it should?
Outside training is exactly what the real training is, thats why it is a different way of life, it isn't limited to the ring or training location, or the fighters desire to beat others. This is the real difference I see in these arts.


not really. When you compete, the real training is done in your sparring. All of the solo work you can handle is not gonna help you if you haven't been drilling and sparring. when you are a fighter, EVERYTHING should be pretty much geared toward that - sparring, focus mitts, sports specific strength training, heavy bag, etc. All of these things are done in class, under the tutelage of a trainer. To not do this is fine for an MA which doesn't compete, but would be disastrous for a competitor. training to fight is indeed a way of life. MA in general is, as we know. But, to what extent is it your way of life? for many, it's nothing more than class three days per week.

Quote:
The student is forced to become better only by themselves, so they are motivated by the how much the student wants to improve, the the harder the student works, the harder the instructor drives them. This cycle is difficult as the student has only their own willpower to rely on. Sports are different, as progress is only measured to others, which then in turn eventually limits it to others.


that's not true at all. Do you think MMA competitors would stop training if they didn't have anyone to comete against? Nah. It's also not true that the harder the student works, the harder the student drives them, at least not entirely true. A student is in a class. he is learning the same material as those around him. Now, when the training is 1 on 1, yes, it's absolutely correct. But in a class setting, if you have 20 people out of 30 that are working their tail off, the teacher can't take time pushing each of them without neglecting others.

Quote:
The training which is inherent, are the tools the instructor gives to the student. Class is a time where a student can learn new points, or re focus old ones.


and that is the train of thought I disagree with. It's not just where he gives you tools. it's where you learn how to use them and get in fighting form to use them. repetitive drilling, bagwork and mittwork are how you refine and learn to use your tolls, in addition to sparring.

Quote:
Any person who has the right type of conditioning for a long time can develop the ability to endure extended fights and inability to last extended fights is a result rather than the actual problem of self motivation or poor teaching.


you really think so? coaching, training and fighting has convinced me to think otherwise.

Quote:
Well, one, you can't make an action without some sort of decision.
You must commit to what you decide to use.


or over commit, which is a downfall I addressed earlier.

Quote:
Secondly, the counter may indeed not do damage, but never attacking the opponent because its not 100 percent sure it will do damage is dangerous thinking to one self.
The attack my not be a counter, but in some way or another, you must assume confidence in yourself eventaully.


sure you should. That's not what I said. blocking in a fight for the most part is ineffectve - that was my point. you then stated that you counter attack with the block. sure you should. but if it's ineffective, then what, you block again? that will get you knocked out. How many fights, sport and otherwise, have you seen an extensive use of blocking?

Quote:
Now this final point is where I always get frustrated with, with all respect to the person you trained with.
Blocks are a training development method.
Blocks are not the primary way of stoping an attack. Blocks are meant as a way in case one cannot use evading or using a technique to get there first.
Simply using blocks against an opponent in a ring isn't a effective way to do anything, except lose. Blocking like this will let your opponent find a weakness, like you said how you use your method. Blocks are meant for developmen of training, and if not properly applied, they can hinder some peoples fighting mindset.


In case you missed what I said eaarlier, here it is again:

Evasion is primary. If you can't evade, parry. if you can't parry, block.

And even though you just said blocking is merely a training method, you advocated blocking in an above statement...
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