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Menjo
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Joined: 27 Jun 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

elbows_and_knees wrote:

not really. When you compete, the real training is done in your sparring. All of the solo work you can handle is not gonna help you if you haven't been drilling and sparring. when you are a fighter, EVERYTHING should be pretty much geared toward that - sparring, focus mitts, sports specific strength training, heavy bag, etc. All of these things are done in class, under the tutelage of a trainer. To not do this is fine for an MA which doesn't compete, but would be disastrous for a competitor. training to fight is indeed a way of life...


I disagree, but I see where you’re coming from.
However I'm really not much of a competitor, so naturally my methods are different.
In saying that, I also don't think my sparring training is any less than that of a serious competitior.


elbows_and_knees wrote:
But, to what extent is it your way of life? for many, it's nothing more than class three days per week.


Thats an extremely harsh statement.
Since we have different approaches to fighting in general and my general lack of experiance, I wouldn't be able to have a definite say in what is my way of life, other than that I do the best I can in what I practice.
What I do know is that its something that I'd be pretty touchy about if it was spit on.

elbows_and_knees wrote:

that's not true at all. Do you think MMA competitors would stop training if they didn't have anyone to comete against? Nah. It's also not true that the harder the student works, the harder the student drives them, at least not entirely true. A student is in a class. he is learning the same material as those around him. Now, when the training is 1 on 1, yes, it's absolutely correct. But in a class setting, if you have 20 people out of 30 that are working their tail off, the teacher can't take time pushing each of them without neglecting others.


Well I just thought that MMA was driven mainly by competition with others, which really makes MMA what it is. They wouldn't stop, but they wouldn't be the same fighters, for better or for worse. They really wouldn't be what is seen of MMA today.
Well, it seems to me with the clubs I've been too, the teacher focuses on those who try hardest and spread the attention equally. If the student isn't willing to listen, they generally miss out. If the entire class worked hard then the standard would of course jump higher.
But I guess theres a difference in teaching methods, so thats a fair point.

elbows_and_knees wrote:

and that is the train of thought I disagree with. It's not just where he gives you tools. it's where you learn how to use them and get in fighting form to use them. repetitive drilling, bagwork and mittwork are how you refine and learn to use your tolls, in addition to sparring.


Sure. To me both methods make sense, just different ideas.

elbows_and_knees wrote:

you really think so? coaching, training and fighting has convinced me to think otherwise.


Yes, I do think so.
For some others and me it has I know, but in general it makes sense.
Perhaps I can re-evaluate that when I've gained some more experience.

elbows_and_knees wrote:

or over commit, which is a downfall I addressed earlier.


Yeah, but anythings possible with the right scenario.

elbows_and_knees wrote:

sure you should. That's not what I said. blocking in a fight for the most part is ineffectve - that was my point. you then stated that you counter attack with the block. sure you should. but if it's ineffective, then what, you block again? that will get you knocked out. How many fights, sport and otherwise, have you seen an extensive use of blocking?


If the counter didn't work the first time, then I'd make it work.
I would follow with other techniques, or if he kept attacking I probably would press on, possibly not the smartest tactic, but its something I know I would end up doing.
If that didn't work, then I'd probably be in serious trouble.

elbows_and_knees wrote:

In case you missed what I said eaarlier, here it is again:

Evasion is primary. If you can't evade, parry. i you can't parry, block.

And even though you just said blocking is merely a training method, you advocated blocking in an above statement...


Ok, I can clear this up.
I wanted to say that blocking is an important training method, which can be incorporated into situations where other options are not present.
So its effective is applied properly, but perhaps not relied too much on.
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Rick_72
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

elbows_and_knees wrote:

the sport aspect is what makes boxing so formidable as a martial art.

True. I used skills I learned in boxing in street fights many times when I was younger. It was really the reason I was interested in it in the first place. So it didn't provide me with any extra mental strength to go along with the skills I was learning, hence the number of fights I engaged in when I was a teenager. It didn't take much to get me to retaliate. Wish I would have had the opportunity to train in a traditional martial art instead, things would probably have been different.

Quote:
it's all simplified. there are many locations, but all of those locations on either the head, torso or legs, no? same with a boxer - solar plexus, liver, kidneys - all on the torso. So technically, they have more than two targets. forehead, chin, jaw, nose, temple - all on the head. boxers have several options as well, but all of the locations are in those two simplified areas, the head and torso.


If your chin is tucked properly, and your hands are up, a blow to the temple or forehead with 14 or 16 oz gloves on isn't really going to have a match changing effect on you. Unless your head gets lifted by a jab, and its followed up to the nose or chin with a cross from the opposite hand.

Quote:
it's only illegal if the ref sees it. that is part of dirty boxing. also rabbit punches, which are strikes to the base of the neck.


I guess you could say that, if that's your attitude to the sport. Not to mention if the ref does see it you can be immediately disqualified at his discretion, or at best have points taken away which can cause you to lose the bout, so why take the chance of playing dirty. Its a sport, try a little sportsmanship.

Quote:
you also said you were a newb to boxing. One of our guys boxed for 10 years, and he leaves nothing open, other than his legs.


Didn't neccessarily say I was a newb. Just said I had more training than actual matches. I boxed for 5 years. My problem is that it was a really long time ago, and I just recently picked up martial arts within the last 5 years, so I walked in very out of practice and relied heavily on what little technique, and habits, I had left.

The biggest difference is that in boxing, you can stagger or back off an opponent by keeping a constant jab in his face. In dojo sparring there's no face contact with students below black belt, so keeping your opponent outside is tougher.

Quote:
you shouldn't be blocking kicks with your arms anyway. However, I don't have this problem. Perhaps you aren't used to absorbing kicks yet?


I block kicks with my arms all the time. Done correctly 9 times out of 10 I hurt the attackers leg more than they hurt my arms anyway (I drop my elbow into their ankle's quite often). I absorb kicks, as well as punches, just fine, but that's really not the point is it? We're talking about sport fighting here, and you can absorb strikes all day, but when the fight's over everything you absorbed is still going to be tallied up on the judges score card isn't it?


Quote:
maybe. it depends on his style. If he's a slugger, he just wants to come straight in. If he's an outboxer, he's gonna stay outside of you, etc. there is no one strategy, as there are several different styles of boxers.


Its true, different boxers fight differently. However, the overlying fact is that their still boxers. Boxer's train with pretty close to the same methods, and that training involves work with their brains, cardio, hands, and feet (feet in a different sense than TMA). They want to land their hands on you, and the simple biological fact is that legs are longer than arms, and you can take away fast footwork by tiring out their legs.

Quote:
they don't train to get hit - they train to evade. blocking is too slow. Blocking a flurry from a boxer will get you KOed because you won't be able to block them all. Evasion is primary. If you can't evade, parry. if you can't parry, block. Boxers spar with contact, which is what conditions them to take hits. point sparring seen in many schools will not do it.


I guess I should have explained that better because it was kind of vague. Boxer's absolutely train to get hit, but not in the sense that I guess I came off with. You can't duck every punch, and you can't run circles around the ring the whole bout. You use slight ducks or bob's to slip punches. You make slight moves to make punches glance instead of landing solid (or scoring points). For points to be scored the knuckle area of the glove has to land solidly on a scoring zone. So by bobbing, or slightly ducking it cause's those blows to not only be lessened, but also to not land the scoring zone of the gloves on a target area. You keep your hands up to help with the deflection (not to mention to protect your face from turning into mush), that's a block in boxing. You pull your arms in tight to you body to disallow a glove to land a scoring blow on the body target area, because points aren't awarded for blows to the arms.

I wasn't blessed with Sugar Ray Leonard speed when I was boxing, so I many times ate my own hands from blocking my opponents strikes (many times I wasn't fast enough to push my hands out slightly when the head punches came), but as long as that didn't effect me physically too much (which it didn't) my opponent wasn't scoring points. I didn't have too much trouble absorbing the occasional shot to the back of the head, knowing that it wasn't points being scored, and that they didn't come very often. The adjustment in TMA is that those are now points, as well as the kidney area, which regardless how you feel about "what the ref see's", is still not only a non scoring area in boxing, but also could earn you lost points or disqualification.

Boxing and TMA are different in so many way's that if you have students in your school that have transitioned easily, well good on em. I mearly outlined some of the things that I've had trouble adjusting to over the last few years of kumite.
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Rick_72
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

elbows_and_knees wrote:

If is a really big word. you have two assumptions here:

1. the if - IF you are successful with a "real" (whatever that means) block.
2. that your counter actually does some damage - it may not.

Also, some of the more often used blocks, like the outside and inside blocks, leave you horribly open. I do this all the time to one of our guys who trained shotokan. I jab to his face. He does an inside block. I jab again. he blocks. I fake the jab, and he blocks - I loop my hand around and hook punch him in the jaw, as that block leaves your face wide open.


I guess the misconception here about blocking is that some people (and I've seen this a lot since my start in TMA) will just attempt to block everything you throw until conditions are perfect for their attack. Which can be very tough, although I've practiced this in free sparring and been pretty successful at just blocking many strikes in succession without countering. That doesn't take into account the person that can block as they strike (which takes really good footwork), or is fast enough to block several strikes in succession then counter. Most strong attacks are going to leave your opponent off center, even if slightly, and a true power punch requires a committed attack (hips turned, shoulders turned into the punch, and sometimes the heal flared), so if you can block that you have a outstanding opportunity for counter. A counter in my mind isn't a single strike, its a counter attack, or a flury (if the situation allows).

Me personally, its when I get inside with my counter attack that I run into the problems I talked about in my previous post. Blocking many strikes, with normal TMA blocks that I've learned, isn't a huge problem. But of course you can block till your blue in the face, they don't score points, and they don't end a fight.
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bushido_man96
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One comment I would make on blocking in TMA, in relation to sport sparring, and absorbing/evading in boxing: with most point sparring systems, if you try to absorb or evade techniques, you still get a point called on you, because they still score those shots. In TMA, you have to have a really good, solid, technique-stopping block to stop a point. Whereas in the street, if you just absorb/evade those blows, it will still take away some of the impact, and not tie up your limbs so you can counter. This is were boxing methods tend to have the advantage over TMA, in my opinion.
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elbows_and_knees
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Joined: 24 Jun 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Menjo wrote:
I disagree, but I see where you’re coming from.
However I'm really not much of a competitor, so naturally my methods are different.
In saying that, I also don't think my sparring training is any less than that of a serious competitior.


as you admittedly don't compete, how do you know? for the record, I am referring to full contact and not point though.


Quote:
Thats an extremely harsh statement.
Since we have different approaches to fighting in general and my general lack of experiance, I wouldn't be able to have a definite say in what is my way of life, other than that I do the best I can in what I practice.
What I do know is that its something that I'd be pretty touchy about if it was spit on.


it wasn't meant to be harsh and wasn't directed at you, per se, as I don't know how often you train. I'm just saying that "way of life" means different things to different people. Out of curiousity, why would you be touchy about it?

Quote:
Well I just thought that MMA was driven mainly by competition with others, which really makes MMA what it is. They wouldn't stop, but they wouldn't be the same fighters, for better or for worse. They really wouldn't be what is seen of MMA today.


I see what you're saying. Lack of competition wouldn't stop them from training hard at all. MMA attracts those who like to work, as it's geared toward those individuals. However, competition sparks evolution. so you are correct in saying that mma would not be where it is today if not for competition.

Quote:
Yeah, but anythings possible with the right scenario.


sure, but what are the chances? in fighting there are no absolutes, and not necessarily even things you can generally plan on happening, so scenario training is difficult.


Quote:
I wanted to say that blocking is an important training method, which can be incorporated into situations where other options are not present.
So its effective is applied properly, but perhaps not relied too much on.


gotcha.
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Menjo
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

elbows_and_knees wrote:

as you admittedly don't compete, how do you know? for the record, I am referring to full contact and not point though.


Awhile back, I've a small amount of Muay Thai experiance, and was in it long enough to train with some friends there.
Even though I no longer train there, we still train together often on our own time and of course, they are heavy into full contact fighting and take it seriously.
Based off my training with theres, the only difference is usually the techniques. Plus, fights with various people in MMA.
So thats pretty much where my assumptions come from, that and my small encounters with the MMA club right beside.
But I see what you mean, as some people make assumptions with no background information.

elbows_and_knees wrote:

it wasn't meant to be harsh and wasn't directed at you, per se, as I don't know how often you train. I'm just saying that "way of life" means different things to different people. Out of curiousity, why would you be touchy about it?


Thats exellent, looking back, I can see I mixed that up.
My way of living is just something I've learned to defend, not always in the best way I guess.


elbows_and_knees wrote:

sure, but what are the chances? in fighting there are no absolutes, and not necessarily even things you can generally plan on happening, so scenario training is difficult.


I agree, there are many factors.
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elbows_and_knees
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rick_72 wrote:

If your chin is tucked properly, and your hands are up, a blow to the temple or forehead with 14 or 16 oz gloves on isn't really going to have a match changing effect on you. Unless your head gets lifted by a jab, and its followed up to the nose or chin with a cross from the opposite hand.


the forehead, no, it won't. that is the hardest part of the skull. The temple, yes it will. that is the intended target of many boxers' overhand right.

Quote:
I guess you could say that, if that's your attitude to the sport. Not to mention if the ref does see it you can be immediately disqualified at his discretion, or at best have points taken away which can cause you to lose the bout, so why take the chance of playing dirty. Its a sport, try a little sportsmanship.


regardless, it's there as part of the sport. I've been headbutted in judo matches intentionally, and in full contact - it happens. boxing trainer freddie roach has been quoted as saying "If a good hook misses, the elbow lands"

Quote:
The biggest difference is that in boxing, you can stagger or back off an opponent by keeping a constant jab in his face. In dojo sparring there's no face contact with students below black belt, so keeping your opponent outside is tougher.


jab to the body, front push kicks as they step in... the ush kicks work really well once you get the timing down.

Quote:

I block kicks with my arms all the time. Done correctly 9 times out of 10 I hurt the attackers leg more than they hurt my arms anyway (I drop my elbow into their ankle's quite often). I absorb kicks, as well as punches, just fine, but that's really not the point is it? We're talking about sport fighting here, and you can absorb strikes all day, but when the fight's over everything you absorbed is still going to be tallied up on the judges score card isn't it?


blocking snap kicks, I'm sure. blocking shink kick can - and has - broken arms. it doesn't always, but you should be aware that it can happen. As for absorption, sure we are talking about sport - and if you don't know how to absorb or roll with a punch, what happens? your bell gets rung. Then points don't matter, cuz you lost by KO.


Quote:
Its true, different boxers fight differently. However, the overlying fact is that their still boxers. Boxer's train with pretty close to the same methods, and that training involves work with their brains, cardio, hands, and feet (feet in a different sense than TMA). They want to land their hands on you, and the simple biological fact is that legs are longer than arms, and you can take away fast footwork by tiring out their legs.


you are correct there. but it's not hard to shuffle back from or circle away from a kick. I do that more than I leg check, actually, unless I want to get inside. We have a tkd guy that likes to front kick. I shuffle away from him, and as his leg re-chambers, I shuffle forward and throw punches.

Quote:
I guess I should have explained that better because it was kind of vague. Boxer's absolutely train to get hit, but not in the sense that I guess I came off with. You can't duck every punch, and you can't run circles around the ring the whole bout. You use slight ducks or bob's to slip punches. You make slight moves to make punches glance instead of landing solid (or scoring points). For points to be scored the knuckle area of the glove has to land solidly on a scoring zone. So by bobbing, or slightly ducking it cause's those blows to not only be lessened, but also to not land the scoring zone of the gloves on a target area. You keep your hands up to help with the deflection (not to mention to protect your face from turning into mush), that's a block in boxing. You pull your arms in tight to you body to disallow a glove to land a scoring blow on the body target area, because points aren't awarded for blows to the arms.


gotcha.

Quote:
The adjustment in TMA is that those are now points, as well as the kidney area, which regardless how you feel about "what the ref see's", is still not only a non scoring area in boxing, but also could earn you lost points or disqualification.


lol, fine, scratch the kidney. what about a shovel hook to the liver or floating rib area?

Quote:
Boxing and TMA are different in so many way's that if you have students in your school that have transitioned easily, well good on em. I mearly outlined some of the things that I've had trouble adjusting to over the last few years of kumite.


no doubt they are different. I don't think there is any serious disadvantage posed against the boxer in sparring though, unless you are using a TMA point system - I was referring to full contact.
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Rick_72
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

elbows_and_knees wrote:

the forehead, no, it won't. that is the hardest part of the skull. The temple, yes it will. that is the intended target of many boxers' overhand right.


I've never been trained to specifically land any punch on the temple. I've always trained to use overhand punches (left or right) to counter a straight hand punch that I timed correctly, or was left out to long, and the target area was always the jaw line. A particularly good target for an overhand punch is the rear of the jaw line where it connects to the ear. Its tough to get any effect out of the temple with boxing gloves on, because there isn't anything protruding from you hand (its a pretty flat surface) to enter into that damage area of the temple.

Quote:
regardless, it's there as part of the sport. I've been headbutted in judo matches intentionally, and in full contact - it happens. boxing trainer freddie roach has been quoted as saying "If a good hook misses, the elbow lands"


Didn't say it didn't happen, just that its not something that I train for, because its not the way I like to win.

Quote:
jab to the body, front push kicks as they step in... the ush kicks work really well once you get the timing down.


Agreed. Just takes some getting used to in a point system, not being able to pump my jab to the face to cause a backing effect on my opponent.

Quote:
blocking snap kicks, I'm sure. blocking shink kick can - and has - broken arms. it doesn't always, but you should be aware that it can happen. As for absorption, sure we are talking about sport - and if you don't know how to absorb or roll with a punch, what happens? your bell gets rung. Then points don't matter, cuz you lost by KO.


Not sure what a "shink" kick is, was that a typo? If not, you'd have to explain it to me, cause we probably just call it something different.

Absorbing punchs is absolutely essential, however, you can't just sit there and absorb them all day, because they are scoring points.

Quote:
We have a tkd guy that likes to front kick. I shuffle away from him, and as his leg re-chambers, I shuffle forward and throw punches.


Fortunately, I don't have a lot of trouble jamming up peoples kicks either. Its just the target area's for punching that I'm still ironing out the bugs on.

Quote:
lol, fine, scratch the kidney. what about a shovel hook to the liver or floating rib area?


One of my favorite boxing techniques. When the other fighter tries to wrap you up to slow the pace, start working that floating rib area or lat muscle, not illegal and won't get points taken away, makes it hard to keep guard up after awhile.

Quote:
no doubt they are different. I don't think there is any serious disadvantage posed against the boxer in sparring though, unless you are using a TMA point system - I was referring to full contact.


Maybe the reason we disagree often, in many threads. I don't fight full contact, and don't really have any plans to anymore (haven't had those plans for years). Boxing could be considered full contact, I guess, but I haven't trained or fought in a boxing ring in over 15 years. I enjoy point sparring, and free sparring simply because I get to blow off a little steam, practice technique (for myself, as well as giving other students some pointers on what their doing wrong and what will and will not work in real life or the ring), and no one ever gets seriously injured.
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elbows_and_knees
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rick_72 wrote:
I've never been trained to specifically land any punch on the temple. I've always trained to use overhand punches (left or right) to counter a straight hand punch that I timed correctly, or was left out to long, and the target area was always the jaw line. A particularly good target for an overhand punch is the rear of the jaw line where it connects to the ear. Its tough to get any effect out of the temple with boxing gloves on, because there isn't anything protruding from you hand (its a pretty flat surface) to enter into that damage area of the temple


I wasn't either. But several boxers apparently were - tyson was one of them.

Quote:
Agreed. Just takes some getting used to in a point system, not being able to pump my jab to the face to cause a backing effect on my opponent.


yeah, I can understand that.

Quote:
Not sure what a "shink" kick is, was that a typo? If not, you'd have to explain it to me, cause we probably just call it something different.


typo - shin kick.
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Rick_72
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

elbows_and_knees wrote:

I wasn't either. But several boxers apparently were - tyson was one of them.


Yeah, well we all know how he turned out .

Quote:
typo - shin kick.


I thought that was maybe what you meant. No I would never even bother trying to block a shin kick, I would just pick my foot up to bend my leg so it wouldn't break it.
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