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FitOrDie!
Yellow Belt
Joined: 19 Jan 2009
Posts: 93
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 Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 4:26 pm Post subject: |
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A rectangle and a rhombus are two different definitions of a shape. They are not the same thing. But sometimes, in the case of a square, they are the same thing.
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Increase work capacity over broad time and modal domains. Intensity is key.
Victory is reserved for those willing to pay its price.
-Sun Tzu |
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Kempohands
Orange Belt
Joined: 25 Jan 2005
Posts: 155
Location: NY
Styles: Kempo, Tatsu-do Karate
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| Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 11:04 pm Post subject: |
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| tallgeese wrote: |
It's a narrow diffference.
Self-defense is actions taken to keep someone from hurting you during an attack (which he controls). YOu're attempting to take back control.
A fight is generally what occurs just after the initiation of your sd efforts, when neither party actually has control. A fight is that effort to gain control over a combative situation.
Again, it's a thin difference. I usually use the terms interchangably, although I prefer the technical destincions above.
Again, great question. should be soem good responses. |
| cross wrote: |
Ive always followed the idea Richard Dimitri at senshido uses.
A fight has 3 key elements that a self defense situation doesn't. These are:
1. Consent - Both parties agree to a fight, in a self defense situation, the attacker chooses you.
2. Awareness- In a fight you are aware that it is going to happen i.e. you both square off, or meet at a certain time/place etc. In a self defense situation you can be ambushed, or a person might be aggressive towards you but you cant always tell for sure if things will go physical.
3. Preparation- Even if you agree to a fight a few moments beforehand there is some time to prepare. Self defense situations often go from 0 to 100 in a matter of seconds. |
I think these two explanations, when put together, answer the question quite sufficiently.
I always thought of the difference as residing in the mindsets of the "participants." In a fight, both (or more) people understand that they are involved in a physical confrontation and practically, this usually means they start in a visibly neutral position. Conversely, in a self defense situation, the attacker initiates the altercation and the defender must react, thus the physical component begins at an uneven position.
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"To win a fight without fighting, that is the true goal of a martial artist."
-Grandmaster Nick Cerio |
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JusticeZero
Black Belt
Joined: 02 Apr 2005
Posts: 2166
Location: AK
Styles: Capoeira Angola
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| Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 6:26 pm Post subject: |
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All I have to add is that I tell people that "If the story involves you at a bar, it isn't self-defense."
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"Anything worth doing is worth doing badly." - Baleia |
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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| Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 11:40 pm Post subject: |
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| JusticeZero wrote: |
| All I have to add is that I tell people that "If the story involves you at a bar, it isn't self-defense." |
You don't think that it can be self-defense in a bar? I think it could be. Although it doesn't work this way often, I don't think that going to a bar should automatically have to cause you to be on the lookout for a fight or an attack. But, it usually does.
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www.haysgym.com
http://www.sunyis.com/
www.aikidoofnorthwestkansas.com |
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JusticeZero
Black Belt
Joined: 02 Apr 2005
Posts: 2166
Location: AK
Styles: Capoeira Angola
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| Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 5:55 am Post subject: |
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No, I don't think it can be self defense at a bar. People always want to tell me about how much they need self defense, and then they justify it by referring to barfights.
Don't go to bars where fights break out all the time, don't jump gleefully in on them with some absurd excuse involving saving face, and if you can't do either of those, don't claim you need skills in "self-defense" to deal with it.
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"Anything worth doing is worth doing badly." - Baleia |
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cross
Black Belt
Joined: 22 Jan 2003
Posts: 1904
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 6:14 am Post subject: |
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| JusticeZero wrote: |
No, I don't think it can be self defense at a bar. People always want to tell me about how much they need self defense, and then they justify it by referring to barfights.
Don't go to bars where fights break out all the time, don't jump gleefully in on them with some absurd excuse involving saving face, and if you can't do either of those, don't claim you need skills in "self-defense" to deal with it. |
From personal experience i believe self defense has an extremely important role to play for those that attend bars/clubs.
Having spent most of my weekends at clubs and bars for the last 2-3 years either working(djing) or just out with friends, i have seen a large number of situations where self defense training has been essential.
I have had countless people try to start fights with me(for no particular reason, although most feel they have a good reason at the time), rarely have these situations gone physical because i have had a reasonable amount of training in not only martial arts, but in verbal de-escalation, situational awareness, threat analysis etc. All of these "soft skills" are important aspects of self defense, and they all happen before a punch is even thrown.
I have numerous friends who have been attacked for various reasons, and female friends who have been sexually assaulted. If they had some training in self defense (and im talking about the soft skills mentioned above not how to kick and punch) then they may been able to better deal with the situation, or avoid it completely.
I dont think saying "dont go to bars, or youll get into fights" is the best thing to teach people if they want self defense. Some people need to be at bars for work, and most just like going out with friends, and should be able to do so with the confidence that they have some ability to defend themselves, with both non-physical and physical tactics, if the need arises. |
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Inya shaolin
White Belt
Joined: 28 Feb 2009
Posts: 15
Styles: American kenpo, shaolin, inya, eskrima
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| Posted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 11:51 am Post subject: |
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Fighting as a sport --not in self-defense or momentary hubris-- can be exhilarating and fun, honing skills for when you may need them for survival. I think that fights where your opponent is untrained in martial arts, or the surroundings are dangerous or things could potentially get out of hand is unsafe and wrong. Just because we have trained to be strong does not mean we should show this off by beating up the untrained.
As for the whole bar fight vs. self-defense... if you didn't start it and tried to end it without too much harm to all involved, it was definitely self defense. Other than that, the situation may be self-defense if you truly believed, for whatever the reason, that you have no choice other than fighting to protect yourself or others.
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second degree brown belt, American/Shaolin kenpo karate
Deja Fu: The feeling that somehow, somewhere, you've been kicked in the head like this before. |
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tallgeese
Black Belt
Joined: 04 May 2008
Posts: 6879
Location: McHenry County, IL
Styles: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Bujin Bugei Jutsu, Gokei Ryu Kempo Jutsu, MMA, Shootfighting, boxing, kickboxing, JKD, Pekiti Tersia Kali
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| Posted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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I can certainly see situations in a club or bar that would be sd. It's entirly possible to go out, want to have a drink, and be assulted.
Notice that doesn't mean that you're out looking for one, or spilling drinks on people to get them riled, or stepping up just because someone stares at you, ect....
It's you're right to go out to where you want without being assulted. It's also you're right to protect yourself should that occur.
Now, what you really need to ask is the establishment known for that sort of thing and is it worth it to even be there. Avoidance can be a very useful thing. But that dosn't mean that you'll never have to legitimately defend yourself in a drinking establishment.
Besides, as someone mentioned, you're job might mandate that a story occassionally start with "when I was in a bar..." |
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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| Posted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 11:49 am Post subject: |
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| Inya shaolin wrote: |
| I think that fights where your opponent is untrained in martial arts, or the surroundings are dangerous or things could potentially get out of hand is unsafe and wrong. Just because we have trained to be strong does not mean we should show this off by beating up the untrained. |
I agree that we should not "show off." However, the "untrained" may be the ones bringing the fight to us. If that's the case, then being untrained is there problem, and I will do what I have to, if I have no choice.
As far as unsafe surroundings are concerned, that may be something out of one's control when self-defense happens, too. Fighting rarely takes place in the sterile types of atmospheres of our dojos.
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http://www.sunyis.com/
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on the post.
