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Harkon72
Black Belt
Joined: 27 Aug 2012
Posts: 1875
Location: Wales
Styles: Okinawan Karate, Aikido, Ninpo.
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 Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 4:33 am Post subject: Finally! The truth about Kubotan Law in the UK! |
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I admit, I carry a Kubotan; actually, I have a new one, a 6" Cornish oak one with a domed head. I have carried a metal one and I have been on a few courses in their use. But there has been great debate over their legal status here in the UK. Are they an offensive weapon? Is any thing that you carry that is designed to injure another person illegal? I always thought that it would be up to a jury to decide your fate should you use one in self defense. As my Sensei said; "You are better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6." He has a point. But last week I asked a 7th Dan Shito Ryu Sensei who used to be the Chief Constable of Manchester Police to clarify this matter. His answer was very interesting. He said; "The Kubotan can be carried, it's its use that defines its legality; If you use the implement to press pressure points on the body or to assist in the application of locks and control techniques and the person whom the defense effects has no permanent injury; then the use of a kubotan is legal. But, if you strike a blow with it; this is deemed to be unreasonable force, and you could be prosecuted. If you use your self defense tool to frighten or intimidate, you are breaking the law, or if the kubotan has any spikes or protrusions, it is deemed illegal. There is a type of kubotan that is outlawed; this is the hollow bamboo design in metal that is too dangerous as it can give injury that is also disproportionate. That's the law as was stated in Manchester Police's most current training as regards offensive weapons and their use." I must say, I was happy with that.
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16427
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 5:56 am Post subject: |
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Solid OP!!
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| Are they an offensive weapon? |
No. Imho, it's a defensive weapon. I'm attacked, I use the Kubotan to DEFEND myself.
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| Is any thing that you carry that is designed to injure another person illegal? |
Injure? No! Encourage? Yes! I don't ever want to injure anybody, however, I'd love to encourage my attacker in a way that they'll understand.
What the 7th Dan Shito-ryu Sensei stated per Manchester's law seems reasonable and decisive in its totality.
Again, it's not the weapon, it's the individual who needs to be made accountable as to how they decide to use said weapon.
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DWx
Black Belt
Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 6455
Location: UK
Styles: Tae Kwon Do & Yang family Tai Chi
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| Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 9:50 am Post subject: |
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It's nice to have some proper clarification. However I would still err on the side of caution and treat the kubotan as illegal. In my (not so informed) opinion I've always understood the law on self defense to be about intent and what would be deemed reasonable force.
| Harkon72 wrote: |
| Is any thing that you carry that is designed to injure another person illegal? |
I think intent is what makes it illegal. If you carry a kubotan or any other weapon and intend to use it on someone to cause harm, albeit in "self defense" then that is getting towards illegal.
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| The Kubotan can be carried, it's its use that defines its legality; If you use the implement to press pressure points on the body or to assist in the application of locks and control techniques and the person whom the defense effects has no permanent injury; then the use of a kubotan is legal. But, if you strike a blow with it; this is deemed to be unreasonable force, and you could be prosecuted. If you use your self defense tool to frighten or intimidate, you are breaking the law, or if the kubotan has any spikes or protrusions, it is deemed illegal. There is a type of kubotan that is outlawed; this is the hollow bamboo design in metal that is too dangerous as it can give injury that is also disproportionate. |
That's how I've heard it described as before. To me, there is just a little too much room for error there. In reality you might get a little carried away and end up striking when you were going for a pressure point or causing serious damage from trying to control them. Besides, unless you are training with it all the time and are very good with it, you might just be better to use your bare fists.
Hollow kubotan are specifically mentioned in the Criminal Justice Act 1988, section 141. As well as a lot of other typical martial arts weapons: https://www.gov.uk/find-out-if-i-can-buy-or-carry-a-knife
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Nidan Melbourne
KF Sempai
Joined: 21 Aug 2013
Posts: 2358
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Styles: Goju-Ryu, BJJ, Balintawak Arnis
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| Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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Its awesome your sensei is a former police officer. I respect anyone who is a police officer that works hard to uphold the law and treats everyone fairly.
Know when they have to be hard on people and to be nice when needed most. |
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wagnerk
Purple Belt
Joined: 02 Oct 2006
Posts: 576
Location: UK
Styles: TSD, Karate & Kickboxing
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| Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 12:06 am Post subject: |
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Excellent info, thanks
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Tang Soo Do: 3rd Dan '18
Karate: 2nd Dan '04 |
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bassaiguy
Orange Belt
Joined: 03 Nov 2011
Posts: 164
Location: Maine, USA
Styles: Shotokan
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| Posted: Tue Mar 10, 2015 10:39 am Post subject: |
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The more of these threads I read the sorrier I feel for my English buddies.
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DWx
Black Belt
Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 6455
Location: UK
Styles: Tae Kwon Do & Yang family Tai Chi
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| Posted: Tue Mar 10, 2015 1:58 pm Post subject: |
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| bassaiguy wrote: |
| The more of these threads I read the sorrier I feel for my English buddies. |
How so? I would argue that laws and restrictions like this are the reason why recent homicide rates in the UK average only 1.2 in 100 000 compared to 6 in 100 000 for the US.
There was a WHO report earlier this year which showed there was a trend between violence and both the levels of preventive education and weapon control laws in each country. See here: http://www.karateforums.com/who-global-status-report-on-violence-prevention-vt47762.html
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cathal
Black Belt
Joined: 20 Nov 2003
Posts: 2237
Location: Atlantic Canada
Styles: Shotokan (Ryukyu Kobujutsu, Iaido)
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| Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2015 11:02 am Post subject: |
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I also have training in Yawara/Kubotan. In Canada it is legal to have and use them. The criminal code, however, does make a distinction between proper use of force. If a police officer (and eventually the JOP/judge) decide that its use was unwarranted, given what occurred in defending yourself--you could face charges.
Thus its critical to understand the laws of wherever you are, and especially those that cover self-defence.
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The best victory is when the opponent surrenders
of its own accord before there are any actual
hostilities...It is best to win without fighting.
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Spartacus Maximus
Black Belt
Joined: 01 Jun 2014
Posts: 1902
Styles: Shorin ryu
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| Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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There was a time many years ago when my living environment made me consider carrying something to defend myself with. To fit my low budget and minimize the kind of trouble I could expect from the authorities, I got creative. I cannot say exactly what I carried but here is something to consider when looking for a defensive device:
1. Cheap to make, easily and readily disposable/destroyed
2.light, compact and easy to carry and produce/access
3. Unassuming appearance, does not look like a weapon.
Creativity is your friend. You could also learn how to use common items found almost anywhere as a weapon. This is far from a be idea and there are a few great books on the subject. there is no need to carry anything if you know what you are likely to find and how to use it. |
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