Fioran Daga (Dagger)

Zaine · Black Belt

I remember my first sparring session that was daga vs daga. It was against my mother, who has done martial arts with me since I started in 2002. We suited up in our gambesons, but on our gorgets, helmets, and gloves, and had 3 minutes of the most fun we have ever had sparring one another. I also wasn't much like the plays within the manuscript, but it was a lot of fun. We circled each other carefully before attacking, calling a point for whomever scored, and then the same thing over again. We had the benefit of over a decade of karate practice at the time, and this allowed us to augment the movements with the muscle memory we already had in a way that sword play did not allow. Needless to say, daga is one of my favorite tools to use in Fiore's arsenal.

Before I get too much further, I should clarify what a daga is. Unlike the the modern ideas of a dagger, this is a Rondel Dagger. The rondel is a small cylinder of steel that comes to a point at the end. The hilts were just big enough to fit into a hand, with two circles larger in circumference than the knife itself. It had no edge, and was used exclusively for stabbing. Fiore, and other Medieval fighting masters, were concerned largely with the rondel because that was the type of dagger carried by knights. A modern dagger would be no use against full plate, and so the rondel came about due to it's ability to punch through the gaps in a plate or, if your were unbelievably strong, straight through the plate itself. Because these manuscripts were made for the upper classes, they were concerned with the type of weaponry that an upperclassman would carry.

I have found that when I talk about daga plays to other Eastern Martial Artists, it tends to translate fairly easily into what we already understand. The plays start with the master unarmed against an attack from a daga. It is mostly concerned with getting either your body, or the daga, off-line from the attack and then disarming. Since the daga is a purely stabbing instrument, there is no worry about slashing and meeting it is a little safer (though it's still a dangerous instrument). A lot of the techniques are very familiar to those with even the barest grappling training. A Judoka would be right at home reading a lot of this.

It isn't until the 6th master that we get daga vs daga plays. This section is shorter, and is only a few plays long before the master begins talking about unarmed vs daga plays again. These largely deal with, again, disarming the opponent and then striking afterwards. Oddly, many of the plays have the master gripping the hilt and top of the daga itself in the beginning. This is to create a greater stability when knocking the attacking daga aside. These caused me the most problems, I found, because it is not my instinct to shorten the blade in this way. However, since there is no edge, these techniques are logical in their construction.

The final plays are daga vs. sword. This section emphasizes the importance of quickly closing the gap. Fiore notes that "you'll have a significant advantage if you know how to do these [plays]." I tend to disagree, as the require very precise timing. In the past, I have been whacked practicing these more than I have been successful. However, success with closing the distance is the correct way to go, and when I was successful with the play, it took away all options with the sword.
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bushido_man96 · KF Sensei

I got through the dagger section, and am into the sword section now.

I'm really looking forward to getting that other book by Windsor to see some flow back and forth. I like the entries and locks that he demonstrates; it's just keeping them straight and trying to follow into other plays that gets tough.

From what I remember reading about swordplay, several of the masters get into half-sword play, not unlike the plays that have you gripping the dagger and shortening the blade. Several of the disarms also involved grabbing the "blade" of the dagger and wrenching it around. This would be very different with an edge on it, and would be fun to see modifications.
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Zaine · Black Belt

It would be interesting to see some modern modifications, and maybe I can look into that as I meditate more on the daga plays. Half-swording, I feel, is the secret to Fiore's sauce, in a lot of ways. It has obvious benefits when it comes to armored combat, but it also allows the combatant to have more more strength in the bind. Whenever I spar, I find that I have a tendency (sometimes good, sometimes bad), to focus on the plays that go to half-sword over the long distance (Zogho Largo) plays.
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Martial arts training is 30% classroom training, 70% solo training.

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bushido_man96 · KF Sensei

When you mentioned Guy Windsor in the one of the other posts, I knew the name was familiar, and was certain I'd read something. Turns out I did have a title of his, the small volume on the Dagger. I'll have to dig it out again and peruse it.
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aurik · KF Sempai

Funny thing is... there is a shop that I have taken weaponsmithing classes at, and one of the classes they teach is the Rondel Dagger. I've been wanting to take that class, but never had the time (it's always been offered during the week). Maybe someday!
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My Journey (So Far)
Shuri-Ryu 1996-1997 - Gokyu
Judo 1996-1997 - Yonkyu
Uechi-Ryu 2018-Present - Nidan
ABS Bladesmith 2021-Present - Apprentice

bushido_man96 · KF Sensei

Tempest · Green Belt

I love that I have been absent from these forums, mostly practicing and teaching HEMA, and come back to find folks have been reading and practicing HEMA.

That is awesome!

Zaine, your profile shows you are in the Dallas area. I recently relocated there myself.

Bushido_Man, I seem to recall that you are in Kansas. I am CERTAIN I have asked this before, but are you anywhere near Manhattan?
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Drew · Orange Belt

bushido_man96 · KF Sensei

Tempest · Green Belt

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