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Zaine
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 2090
Location: Dallas, TX
Styles: Matsumura-Seito, Shobayashi-Ryu, Shudokan, Long Fist, American Street Karate, Southern Mantis, HEMA

PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2023 4:29 pm    Post subject: Fiorian Introductions Reply with quote

As I re-integrate myself with WMA and HEMA, the thing that I am remembering the most is the amount of reading that you have to do. WMA and HEMA approach Martial Arts in a very different way than EMA. In EMA, you come to a class, start learning, and the history is fed to you in stages throughout a period of time. Sometimes, this culminates in an essay before Shodan, or a history requirement. This is not the case with WMA. Even in my past experiences of going to a class, we learned the history up front; enough of it to write an essay after the first class. This is what I am facing now. I am currently less practicing, which is fine because I don't currently have the funds for a trainer, much less 2 of them, and more learning who Fiore dei Liberi was, who I should be reading along side him, and who I should be reading next. All of this is before I even look at a sword, though that is not the first thing you learn with Fiore.

The idea here is that context matters. With EMA, the context is self-defense. The context is built into the system from the ground up. Someone understood the need for defense, and then created techniques around that. We, in turn, understand the use of self defense, and learn those techniques. This is not entirely the case with learning systems of fighting from historical manuals. Firstly, it's rare to see someone walking around with a sword. There are far more efficient ways of defending ourselves now. This is true for the time periods these manuscripts were written in. Swords and steel (in general) are for the rich. This leads us to the second point: these manuscripts were for knights doing combat in lists. They assume that the chaos of a battlefield is somewhere far off, and that the combatants are just fighting for tournament entertainment. This is not true of all manuscripts, some spend some time with battlefield fighting, but it is true for a large majority of them. That context is important, because it allows the WMA/HEMA practitioner to slow down a little bit, and ask "Why is this technique like this? Why are we doing it in this way?" Thirdly, the tradition of passing these things down no longer exists in a way that is comparable with EMA. Fiore was alive in the 1300-1400s. That we have any indication of his technique is nothing short of a miracle. Studying the words and drawings takes time, especially if fidelity is the goal (and it is!).

So we learn they whos, whys, and wheres of the art before the hows. That's not a bad thing, it's just different. It is fun to learn these things. I've always enjoyed learning the history of a Martial Art, and doing that up front is just fine with me. After this, Fiore's instructions start in earnest with unarmed grappling. He reasoned that without a foundation of fitness without a sword, one could not wield a sword effectively. I agree with him. I'll be back when I'm there.
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 29649
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR

PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2023 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ooh, this is great. I've got a whole bunch of manuals here at home in my library, and I'd be happy to try to study a little alongside you, Zaine. I don't know that I'll ever get to the physical performance steps; I just don't have the resources around me to do so.

Is there a certain manual that you are working through right now? Is there a version of it in print? Let me know; I'm always looking for excuses to buy more books!
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Zaine
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 2090
Location: Dallas, TX
Styles: Matsumura-Seito, Shobayashi-Ryu, Shudokan, Long Fist, American Street Karate, Southern Mantis, HEMA

PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2023 7:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Right now, I'm working through Fior di Battaglia, which is this one: https://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Fior_di_Battaglia_(MS_Ludwig_XV_13)

It does have a print version here in both hard and paperback: https://www.amazon.com/Flower-Battle-MS-Ludwig-XV13/dp/0984771697/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1674136357&sr=8-1

I'd love to have people to participate with me! Spreading interest is one of the reasons that I decided to post my journey here, though I know that you have prior interest already. I hear you on the resources. There are a few gyms that do HEMA near me, but the cost is prohibitive. I'm trying to rope my Mother back into it, since we did this together before. She is a busy woman, though, so we shall see.
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Martial arts training is 30% classroom training, 70% solo training.

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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 29649
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR

PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2023 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zaine wrote:
Right now, I'm working through Fior di Battaglia, which is this one: https://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Fior_di_Battaglia_(MS_Ludwig_XV_13)

It does have a print version here in both hard and paperback: https://www.amazon.com/Flower-Battle-MS-Ludwig-XV13/dp/0984771697/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1674136357&sr=8-1

I'd love to have people to participate with me! Spreading interest is one of the reasons that I decided to post my journey here, though I know that you have prior interest already. I hear you on the resources. There are a few gyms that do HEMA near me, but the cost is prohibitive. I'm trying to rope my Mother back into it, since we did this together before. She is a busy woman, though, so we shall see.
Sweet, I am ordering that either tonight or tomorrow!! Thanks for the link.

How costly is it per month, Zaine?
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http://www.sunyis.com/
www.aikidoofnorthwestkansas.com
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Zaine
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 2090
Location: Dallas, TX
Styles: Matsumura-Seito, Shobayashi-Ryu, Shudokan, Long Fist, American Street Karate, Southern Mantis, HEMA

PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2023 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just googled it to double check, and it's $100 - $150, which isn't nearly as bad as I thought. I just don't think that I can justify it at this point in time. Who knows, though? I'm eligible for a promotion at work so if I can get that, maybe it's time to join a gym.
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Martial arts training is 30% classroom training, 70% solo training.

https://www.instagram.com/nordic_karate/
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 29649
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR

PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2023 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hopefully you can work out the cost. That would be great training.

I got the book ordered, and it has shipped. Should be here next week.
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www.aikidoofnorthwestkansas.com
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