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Jay
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Joined: 20 May 2005
Posts: 1190


PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 9:40 am    Post subject: Forms/Kata Reply with quote

I would just like to hear everyones opinions on the advantages and disadvantages of forms in a system. Personally at the moment I hate them although I am not training currently( hopefully I will be again in a few weeks) and was one of the reasons for leaving my style although I know most style incorporate them so I guess I will have to live with them either way.

Just like to know your thoughts on this

Thanks

J
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NightOwl
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Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 1097
Location: Lost on the West Coast
Styles: Working on Judo and BJJ

PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There was an epic discussion on this topic awhile back:

http://www.karateforums.com/the-uselessness-of-kata-vt28539.html

Personally I don't think that they are needed since the whole point was to shadow box by yourself/ preserve a move set. But if you train in a gym you shouldn't have to practice by yourself so much, and paper and literacy (not to mention video) is common nowadays so you don't need to rely on kata to preserve moves anymore. Add in that many moves in kata have not been practiced in so long that they've been forgotten/ left up in the air, and I think that overall kata are a nice cultural tradition if you are into that but otherwise are way too overemphasized in many systems (why not just train the move instead of only seeing it in a kata?). Plus there are many more efficient ways to build streangth or muscle memory.


As far as having it in a system- I think that you just have to suck it up and do it- maybe try and find out what the moves were originally for with you dojo friends and reanimate some of martial art's 'forgotten' moves.
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bushido_man96
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Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 28921
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 8:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can ride the fence here. I enjoy forms, but I could do without them, too. I much prefer application training. If that is done with the forms, then great. But there is more than one way to skin a cat.
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mecalder
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Joined: 05 Oct 2007
Posts: 24
Location: NB, Canada
Styles: Karate

PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think Kata makes sense to practice. I don't know much about forms yet however. I don't think you are likely to see someone doing an exact kata in a fight, but kata is a good way to practice different techniques, and it is a good way to practice chaining these techniques together. I understand people that practice martial arts without kata know how to do each of these things. But Kata is another form of teaching and discipline, and after going over it, and over it, the techniques are much easier to execute.
Also, it is a good way to focus, and a good source of exercise. I find that when I go over kata, I try to focus as much as possible, and think that by continuing to practice them will help me build a stronger body/mind connection.
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cross
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Joined: 22 Jan 2003
Posts: 1904
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 1:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Training is all about forming/learning good habits. The times when forms training becomes a problem is when the movements in the forms instill bad habits to the student.

Take for example, pulling the hand(not in use) back to the hip, look at the number of times this happens in most kata, continue to train this way and this becomes habit. I think most people will agree that having the hand not in use in some form of guard near the face or around shoulder height is far more important habit to have than pulling the fist back to the hip.

There are some forms and pre-arranged drills that will help you in training and are worth while, but when the drill is based around bad habits, consider doing something different.
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dineshm
Yellow Belt
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Joined: 30 Sep 2007
Posts: 63

Styles: Matsumura Shorin Ryu-, Shito-Ryu

PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 4:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I was learning about cavities in dental school, they had us cut specific shapes in fake teeth.
We did this over and over, over and over.
You are never going to meet a cavity, with that exact shape, but it' prepares you ,gives you some experience..

I think kata has it's purpose, like everything else.
Personally I think kata should be practiced regularly, not only as a important part of a martial artists development, but to preserve the past.
History is important, and it's preserved in the kata.
Karate now is seeing many fancy kicks, spinning this, and jumping hook that. You wouldn't find those in traditional kata.
The same way reading a history book, or talking to your grand parents gives you an appreciation of the past, and allows you to grow as an individual,....
Do your kata, and like it .
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cross
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Joined: 22 Jan 2003
Posts: 1904
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 5:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dineshm wrote:
Personally I think kata should be practiced regularly, not only as a important part of a martial artists development, but to preserve the past.
History is important, and it's preserved in the kata.
Karate now is seeing many fancy kicks, spinning this, and jumping hook that. You wouldn't find those in traditional kata.
The same way reading a history book, or talking to your grand parents gives you an appreciation of the past, and allows you to grow as an individual,....
Do your kata, and like it .


Well that would surely depend on the persons goals. If a person wants to practice art for arts sake, and maintain the history of a certain style, then so be it. But if you goals are not aimed at retaining history than doing something just because it was done in the past isnt going to provide much help. We have new research, better training methodologies, more scientifically developed training programs. Why ride a horse when you can drive a car?
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ninjanurse
KF VIP

Joined: 13 Feb 2003
Posts: 6154
Location: Upstate NY
Styles: TKD;Shotokan;JuJitsu;Tai Ji

PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2007 4:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

These are great tools for martial artists not just historical artifacts. All kata and drills help to pattern our minds and bodies to a specific motion that we can then build on, add to, etc. Numerous "patterns" lay the foundation for reaction to many different situations in sparring and self-defense. Modern drills are no different in their goals, just "new".


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cross
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Joined: 22 Jan 2003
Posts: 1904
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2007 4:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ninjanurse wrote:
These are great tools for martial artists not just historical artifacts. All kata and drills help to pattern our minds and bodies to a specific motion that we can then build on, add to, etc. Numerous "patterns" lay the foundation for reaction to many different situations in sparring and self-defense. Modern drills are no different in their goals, just "new".



So if kata program your body for specific motion, how is the specific motion of throwing a punch from a long stance with your other hand at your hip and holding the punching arm out straight at the end of the movement benifitial? If you are programming it, has you say, why not program useful things?
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bushido_man96
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Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 28921
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2007 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dineshm wrote:

History is important, and it's preserved in the kata.
The same way reading a history book, or talking to your grand parents gives you an appreciation of the past, and allows you to grow as an individual,....
Do your kata, and like it .


However, a history lesson is not important when it comes to defending your life against a killer. Doing something historic for the sake of preservation is a good thing. You can see this in many different activities, like Civil War re-enactors. However, you wouldn't take a musket to war today.

I enjoy practicing forms. I won't say that I don't. But just because something is "traditional" doesn't mean it is right or effective. There was a time before the use of forms, that forms did not exist.
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