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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2468
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 Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Can a martial artist truly express his/herself with practicing only preset katas? Agility and the ability to maneuver around an opponent/s takes skill. This skill is developed from practicing against experienced opponent. Timing and speed is also an important factor. Katas are good for practicing form but not for other important aspects just mentioned. Katas are practiced at one's own speed. All opponent will differ in this aspect. For all opponent to fight at one's own practiced kata speed is very unlikely. For all opponent to attack within the spectrum of katas is not reality based either. Form should follow function and not the other way around. Learn the kicks-punches-blocks-etcetera and then let the techniques hit all by themselves. |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16425
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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Kata is just one tool; there's still Kihon and Kumite. Kata by itself isn't enough; empty.
_________________
**Proof is on the floor!!! |
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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2468
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| Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Kumite, one step sparring and forms are fine for beginners. My point is that, to continue without any end or conclusion is like painting by numbers for artists. Just copying and mimicking, painting by numbers the creative aspect will be drained away. Free flowing ma movements will help a martial artist to become independently ready for any situation as opposed to getting inhibited through repition. It is the creative element of surprise fighters that leave the prize fighters to wonder what happened! |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16425
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 1:21 am Post subject: |
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Still worth repeating...
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| Kata is just one tool; there's still Kihon and Kumite. Kata by itself isn't enough; empty. |
Mimicking...copying...no...I don't think that's what Karateka's do.
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| Kumite, one step sparring and forms are fine for beginners. |
They're also still fine for High Dan ranks too...I've seen Okinawa Masters do them...still.
Kata is Karate...Karate is Kata.
_________________
**Proof is on the floor!!!
Last edited by sensei8 on Mon Apr 11, 2016 12:14 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Hawkmoon
Pre-Black Belt
Joined: 17 Jun 2013
Posts: 891
Location: MK in the UK
Styles: Kyokushin
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| Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 4:47 am Post subject: |
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Karate has three parts, its a package deal!
Kata is one part of that, kumite another, kihon the final piece to that package!
Kihon (basics), 'put your hand like this'... 'place your foot there' is important, as it develops this or that muscle/muscle group and muscle memory for that kick or punch etc.
Kata (formal movement, the dance if you wish) teaches movement from one stance to another doing one kick/punch transitioning to another kick/punch.
Kumite is the combination of all of the above, the movement with a stronger muscle/muscle group form one stance to another as you move around to gain advantage over your opponent.
Each adds a benefit to the other, some would say small others would offer is it the everything of the art, but no matter what there view is these are all part of the art!
The mind has normal honest to goodness human operation, if it can it will make a movement more efficient (small) to achieve the same result you are thinking to achieve!
Kihon and all its long stances and long arm or hand movements becomes a fighters side step and attack as a result!
Kata is what gave the mind the idea, the movement, on how to do that as the body transitioned form one position to another!
Where kumite demands and expects the person to 'makes stuff up' and operating in a fluid and dynamic way... to fight, many people miss that is the purpose of kata, its the first step towards developing another plan, another idea/way to use this kick or that strike!
Kihon is the glue here. If the muscles being used to hit the other guy do not get used they will be weak and limit your ability to survive that battle!
Consider that back in the day fights lasted as long as the other persons ability to keep breathing or at least stay conscious, today its to at the least reach the end of the bout!
The result is to win, to do that we train, and in karate that means three bits all working together inside your head to that end!
the more you put into the more you get back!
_________________
“A human life gains luster and strength only when it is polished and tempered.”
Sosai Masutatsu Oyama (1923 - 1994) Founder of Kyokushin Karate. |
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RW
Green Belt
Joined: 07 Mar 2009
Posts: 426
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| Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 11:49 am Post subject: |
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| JR 137 wrote: |
Kata and kihon (basics) are the theory, kumite is the practice (or application, if you will). As an example or two...
My brother in-law is a NYS Trooper. In the academy, he learned how to hold and care for his gun(kihon). He went to a range and learned to fire it (kata), then he learned how to fire it in scenarios/drills (kumite). If he gets into a shootout (hopefully not), this'll be his "street fight."
A student studying physics learns theories/laws and formulas (kihon). He/she then learns how to solve problems on paper (kata), then he/she goes into the lab and sees the whole process first hand (kumite). If he/she works for, say the police investigating car crashes, the "street fight" is looking at the entire scene and figuring out what actually happened.
In both of those "street fights," the person uses what they learned and applies it to the real world. It'll never go exactly as stated in textbooks, as there's too many variables to consider, but they're equipped with the best choices to choose from.
Kata gives you the opportunity to see/know the choices and make them work for you. What you do with them is up to you. |
The way I see it, if a real fight is a heated argument, sparring/kumite is a debate, kata is singing and individual techniques are like learning words.
Kata has pre-arranged "words" (techniques), but in a song no one is talking back to you and you are in control of the variables. |
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RW
Green Belt
Joined: 07 Mar 2009
Posts: 426
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| Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 12:08 pm Post subject: |
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My point of view may be a bit controversial, but I feel forms in general (not just karate kata) are a result of the times they were created in.
You have a martial art and somehow you need to pass the knowledge, but because of different reasons (e.g. practicing fighting methods gets banned in your country, or not everybody knows how to read and write, maybe you want to keep it secret, etc) you can't just put everything down on a book or a youtube video, what do you do? enter forms!
They can be seen as a living encyclopedia, you have to somehow efficiently shoehorn strikes, blocks, stances and footwork into a pattern that still needs to make sense.
So you create a bunch of forms/katas, you make them flow well, you make them graceful, and you give them a meaning sometimes (e.g. the number of steps in some kata has a symbolism to it).
Then there are more nuanced reasons, for example, legend has it that bodhidharma say that the praying monks were very unfit and they meditated all day so he trained their bodies for fitness using forms, which makes a lot of sense. Anyone who has practiced an advanced form at full power for several repetitions can attest they have a HIIT-like impact on one's cardio.
Nowadays you can go to youtube and look up "spinning back kick tutorial" and make a post in karateforums.com looking for advice and maybe see DVD on drills before heading to the dojo. Back in those days, you only had kata. |
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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2468
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| Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Can anyone or is anyone capable of free flowing ma movement? Sure you have learned katas. I'm suggesting giving it a try, to move freely outside the kata routine box; could be a liberating ma experience. |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16425
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 1:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Alan Armstrong wrote: |
| Can anyone or is anyone capable of free flowing ma movement? Sure you have learned katas. I'm suggesting giving it a try, to move freely outside the kata routine box; could be a liberating ma experience. |
Any MAist, imho, worth his/her salt can free flow, especially away from Kata. It takes time, like everything, but is attainable. One of the things that helps us is that while we're Kata devotees, we're also taught Resistive Training. When you mix up Kata and Resistive Training into any spectrum of Bunkai, free flowing becomes not only effective, but necessary.
Still, Kata helps us to maintain good form, aka posture/etc, but one has to willingly step away from the bounds and shackles that can trap us into rigidity. Relax, and let it all flow as necessary as possible.
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**Proof is on the floor!!! |
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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2468
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| Posted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Can you do a kata in a forest? Can you do a kata on a rocky sloped mountain side? Can you do a kata in complete darkness? Can you do a kata in a crowded room? |
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on the post.
