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DWx
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 6140
Location: UK
Styles: Tae Kwon Do & Yang family Tai Chi

PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Works for Machida. In fact his front kick KO's are some of my favourite in MMA: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1A1z72FBm0

For me I use it in 2 ways similar to what's already been alluded to. The variation with the heel in a pushing action to check or stop my opponent. Or smashing with the ball of the foot.
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OneKickWonder
Purple Belt
Purple Belt

Joined: 17 Feb 2018
Posts: 513

Styles: Tang soo do

PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 12:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DWx wrote:
Works for Machida. In fact his front kick KO's are some of my favourite in MMA: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1A1z72FBm0

For me I use it in 2 ways similar to what's already been alluded to. The variation with the heel in a pushing action to check or stop my opponent. Or smashing with the ball of the foot.


In about the first 5 mins, we see a KO from a jumping front kick. That's not the basic snap kick I'm on about.

By 6:50 we've seen several basic front snap kicks. Not a single one of which had any effect. Two of which were effectively blocked with a downward sweeping action. The man doing the blocking seemed to intentionally avoid the toes. I can understand why. Strong toes into the wrist would hurt, but a slight variation on this block would have seen the kickers toes put out of action for a while.

8.23 a KO from a basic front snap kick. Without doubt, it can be effective sometimes.

As a side note, I like how that Machida chap bows to his opponent after the match. It's nice to see some respect in combat sports. Too often that respect seems to be missing.

Overall, the video hadn't convinced me. A very well trained fighter pulled it off, as anyone can. But that same very fighter showed that it is often futile, and quite high risk. I observed from that video that he threw at least as many roundhouse kicks as front kicks, and most of those round house kicks were taken very seriously even though on this occasion they were not decisive. Of the front kicks thrown, most were variants of the basic front snap kick, with most front kicks proving futile. The scissor kick version is devastating, and although fairly high risk to the kicker, carries enough momentum to be much higher risk to the opponent. The decisive front snap kick near the end was flawless. With risk effectively mitigated by the distraction with the hands. Circumstances allowed it to work effectively. That won't happen too many times.
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JR 137
KF Sempai
KF Sempai

Joined: 10 May 2015
Posts: 2369
Location: In the dojo
Styles: Seido Juku

PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OneKickWonder,
You’ve mentioned the front kick is “high risk” several times. What’s so high risk about it? Other than hurting your toes.

Roundhouse kick is higher risk IMO. The leg comes up from the side and hooks around, thereby throwing off balance more. And it takes more of a lean. It takes longer to land, as a front kick is a straight line, whereas a roundhouse is an arc. It’s easier to catch and hold it. The in regards to the path it takes and time, it’s like a cross vs a hook punch. The cross is a faster and straighter punch. And because your punching hand is still in front of you, you’re more closed off than a hook which opens you up a bit more. Front vs roundhouse is the same IMO.

Sidekick’s biggest risk IMO is you need to turn sideways to deliver it correctly. That exposes your back more. Biomechanicaly, the sidekick should be the most powerful kick as it engages more leg muscles and those muscles are at a more advantageous line of pull than the others, but it’s not nearly as easy to master as a front kick; and it’s not a kick that’s not as versatile (for me anyway).

No need to discuss the risk of spinning and/or flying kicks.

Regardless of the kick, you’re standing on one leg. Regardless of the kick, you could injury any kicking surface. Have you ever had someone block a roundhouse with the point of their elbow? One of the most painful kicking mistakes I’ve made. Ever have a roundhouse “checked” by someone else’s shin? Ooowwww! doesn’t do it justice.

How is the front kick inherently more risky than any other kick? I’m genuinely trying to understand this. IMO it’s easily the lowest risk kick, hence part of why I throw it so often. If it doesn’t have any power behind it, it’s not worth throwing. But that could be said of any technique.
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OneKickWonder
Purple Belt
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Joined: 17 Feb 2018
Posts: 513

Styles: Tang soo do

PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JR 137 wrote:
OneKickWonder,
You’ve mentioned the front kick is “high risk” several times. What’s so high risk about it? Other than hurting your toes.



I sincerely hope you never find out what it feels like when blunt force trauma causes permanent damage to one or more of your toe joints.

To give you some idea of the potential consequences of 'hurting your toes', expect to spend a lot more money on footwear. Expect to spend much more time searching for footwear that works for you. Don't be planning too much running. Develop an intimate knowledge of anti inflammatory drugs and ointments, buy yourself a walking stick, maybe 20 years before you're old enough to suit it. Learn alternates to very standard exercises and techniques, even the simple pushup requiring modification, and learn to not care too much if someone asks you why you modify your training. And learn to say without sounding embarrassed or hurt, sorry sir, I can't do that.

All this for what? To satisfy some bizarre idea of 'traditional' training, ideas passed down from some long dead master and often misinterpreted and stagnated in time. Because we all know, if ever we get attacked and have to engage in hand to hand combat, it's most likely we'll tell our attacker to wait 15 minutes while we take our shoes off then do a quick warm up, maybe stretch off a bit, before kicking them and hoping they don't try to hard to prevent us from kicking them.

Hurting your toes sounds trivial. Until you remember that ever single step you take places forces through your toes. Every time we walk on an uneven surface or raise one leg for a kick, our toes provide the feedback needed to stabilise the supporting foot. Your toes are really quite important.
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JR 137
KF Sempai
KF Sempai

Joined: 10 May 2015
Posts: 2369
Location: In the dojo
Styles: Seido Juku

PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OneKickWonder wrote:
JR 137 wrote:
OneKickWonder,
You’ve mentioned the front kick is “high risk” several times. What’s so high risk about it? Other than hurting your toes.



I sincerely hope you never find out what it feels like when blunt force trauma causes permanent damage to one or more of your toe joints.

To give you some idea of the potential consequences of 'hurting your toes', expect to spend a lot more money on footwear. Expect to spend much more time searching for footwear that works for you. Don't be planning too much running. Develop an intimate knowledge of anti inflammatory drugs and ointments, buy yourself a walking stick, maybe 20 years before you're old enough to suit it. Learn alternates to very standard exercises and techniques, even the simple pushup requiring modification, and learn to not care too much if someone asks you why you modify your training. And learn to say without sounding embarrassed or hurt, sorry sir, I can't do that.

All this for what? To satisfy some bizarre idea of 'traditional' training, ideas passed down from some long dead master and often misinterpreted and stagnated in time. Because we all know, if ever we get attacked and have to engage in hand to hand combat, it's most likely we'll tell our attacker to wait 15 minutes while we take our shoes off then do a quick warm up, maybe stretch off a bit, before kicking them and hoping they don't try to hard to prevent us from kicking them.

Hurting your toes sounds trivial. Until you remember that ever single step you take places forces through your toes. Every time we walk on an uneven surface or raise one leg for a kick, our toes provide the feedback needed to stabilise the supporting foot. Your toes are really quite important.


I think you misunderstood my post.

I’m completely empathetic to your personal situation. I said in a previous post that with your particular condition, it’s really stupid to use the front kick. I’m not changing my stance on that, regardless of whatever else I post.

I understand the importance of the toes. I’ve injured mine on a number of occasions; not to the extent you have, obviously. With about 16 years of professional experience in sports medicine (athletic trainer), I’m fully aware of biomechanics.

I was speaking in general, not of your specific condition. If I came off any other way, I truly apologize. That wasn’t my intention.

You’re truly an exception to my thoughts on the front kick. You didn’t “hurt” your toes; you permanently injured/damaged them, if that makes sense? I don’t remember off the top of my head how you did that, but I’m quite certain someone won’t damage their toes to the extent you have by having a front kick blocked. Especially while wearing shoes in an actual fight. Crazier things have happened though.

In regards to doing it because it’s “traditional” “expected” or someone doesn’t want to tell their teacher they can’t do it and face backlash, I don’t have much to say except they’ve got the wrong teacher. Any teacher worth his/her salt will accommodate a student with a genuine physical limitation(s). I’ve got a torn labrum in my shoulder. I can’t do push-ups without grinding pain, then aching and throbbing for days or longer afterwards. Knuckle pushups on the wooden floor are “traditional” at my current and former dojo. We line up and do them often as an entire class, with our teacher doing them as well. My teacher knows my limitation and doesn’t bat an eyelash when I immediately roll onto my back and do sit-ups while everyone else is doing push-ups. Neither does anyone else. We have a 3rd dan who just got a knee replacement yesterday. She hasn’t done kiba dachi/horse stance in years. No one’s told her to get lower in ANY stance. No one’s told her to twist more in any kick, etc. I’d do push-ups if I could; she’d do lower stances if she could; you’d do front kick if you could. That’s the way it’s supposed to be. If you’ve got a genuine condition, you’re not supposed to “suck it up” and make it worse; you’re supposed to work within your limitations. Any teacher who can’t accept that is in the wrong business IMO. The MA are supposed to be a lifelong study that makes you stronger, or something that physically breaks you down to the point you can’t train again.

Note: The “you” is a general “you” and not you personally.

Again, I’m empathetic to your situation. While I don’t have exactly what you have, I can easily relate. My previous posts were about the kick in general and practiced by someone without extenuating circumstances. If I came across any differently, I apologize.
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OneKickWonder
Purple Belt
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Joined: 17 Feb 2018
Posts: 513

Styles: Tang soo do

PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JR 137 wrote:



In regards to doing it because it’s “traditional” “expected” or someone doesn’t want to tell their teacher they can’t do it and face backlash, I don’t have much to say except they’ve got the wrong teacher. Any teacher worth his/her salt will accommodate a student with a genuine physical limitation(s).


I agree. I'm lucky in this respect. Both my immediate teachers and the wider association are good in this respect. It doesn't change the fact that sometimes it's easy to feel bad about having to do something different to the rest of the class.

Quote:
If I came across any differently, I apologize.


If anyone has anything to apologise for, it would be me. I get quote touchy at times about my limitations because it frustrates me because I can vividly remember when I didn't have such limitations.

You have nothing to apologise for as far as I can see.

But going back to stone cold logic, and the original question of this thread, I wasn't trying to completely dismiss the basic front snap kick. I like it. I maintain that it is high risk for low reward. What I was really looking for was tips on making it useful at lower risk, so things like how to be more aware of opportunity for your opponent to smash your toes. How to speed it up, how to better time it, how to 'feel' when it's right or wrong etc.
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Bulltahr
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Joined: 08 Mar 2015
Posts: 614
Location: NEW ZEALAND
Styles: Shotokan, Seido Juku

PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I love the Mae geri, I'm not a high kicker, especially side and mawashis, so I work a lot on my mae geris. Mine have some power, and speed, I'm happy that they and ushiro geris are my best kicks.
Beautiful example here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhkoqvXMd9k
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JazzKicker
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Joined: 07 Aug 2017
Posts: 128
Location: NJ
Styles: JKD, TSD, MMA

PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

in JKD we throw that straight on snap front kick as a stop hit to the shin.
When throwing plain old mid-level front kicks on a bag or person, I almost never hit straight on. Usually at an angle, always aimed to get through defenses (and avoid banging up my foot). Think of the snap, lead leg front kick as a jab.
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JR 137
KF Sempai
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Joined: 10 May 2015
Posts: 2369
Location: In the dojo
Styles: Seido Juku

PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bulltahr wrote:
I love the Mae geri, I'm not a high kicker, especially side and mawashis, so I work a lot on my mae geris. Mine have some power, and speed, I'm happy that they and ushiro geris are my best kicks.
Beautiful example here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhkoqvXMd9k


Watching the replay in slo-mo, that one landed just like an uppercut.

Great example. I haven’t seen that clip before.

And yeah, I’m in the same boat with my kicks. I guess I got forced to make mae geri work, in a way. My ushiro geri (back kick) is quite strong and effective on people I haven’t sparred with before. I do it as more of a side and half way spinning geri of sorts as a follow up to stuff like mawashi geri (roundhouse) or kake geri (hook kick to the non-Seido contingent). I never throw ushiro geri on it’s own; it’s always at the end or near the end of a combo.
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OneKickWonder
Purple Belt
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Joined: 17 Feb 2018
Posts: 513

Styles: Tang soo do

PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thinking back to my kung fu days, we were encourage to wear trainers. The front kick had several variants, none of which were ball of foot. To check a kick we used the inside edge if we couldn't get the flat of the foot there in time. If it was a strike it was heel.

Thinking back also to my school days (a very long time ago) in physical education, when playing football (soccer to our American friends), we were taught to kick with the instep rather than the toes.

I think everyone except the Japanese and their Korean plagiarists figured out that smashing the toes forcibly into anything was a bad idea.
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