|
|
| Author |
Message |
DWx
Black Belt
Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 6455
Location: UK
Styles: Tae Kwon Do & Yang family Tai Chi
|
 Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 12:11 pm Post subject: Going backwards |
 |
|
Is going backwards a legitimate strategy?
So reading bits and pieces and come across these comments (hope you guys don't mind me quoting you):
| JusticeZero wrote: |
| Last time I had a class I was making students do pushups every time I saw them go backward to defend. |
| sensei8 wrote: |
| It's during the back-peddle that the attacker, and not the defender, whose favored because of a willing to surrender and/or receive and/or accept the attack in which the defender holds on for the ride, and hoping for the best. |
| sensei8 wrote: |
| Shindokan teaches that going backwards is risky for varied reasons, therefore, we don't go backwards in any shape, way, and/or form. |
| isshinryu5toforever wrote: |
| Going straight backwards is a mistake, because you'll get caught eventually... |
Instead of hijacking the threads, thought this deserved its own place for discussion.
Now in my TKD training, going backwards is ok. In fact in some cases its a good thing. Of course running backwards all the time because you're trying to avoid the confrontation is a bad thing. But opening up the distance between you and your opponent is highly favoured.
Perhaps this is merely a stylistic thing.
In our forms there are plenty of sections which are "retreating", in fact, in one particular one called Juche, you're going backwards by about 9 stances. We also do tons of drills (for both competition and non-competition sparring) based on going backwards to create distance. (Maybe if I've got time and a willing victim I'll upload a video). Now just to clarify, I don't mean going backwards doing nothing and just trying to avoid the onslaught from your opponent. When going backwards, its always to draw the opponent in, create distance, and then when you're in a position to do so firing off something.
For example, we work on a lot of kicks from the clinch. You've gone in, done your stuff, maybe the ref's about to tell you to separate, or your attacker's buddies have shown up. You push against them and then back kick moving away or switch roundhousing away etc. and take a couple of steps backwards. Or perhaps you're being chased backwards, going back to get them to commit to following you, then at the last second you change direction and move off resulting in themselves running out the ring or running into an obstacle. Or even, if they're chasing you, go backwards then suddenly stop and throw a punch, they'll run themselves onto it and receive double the impact.
Now its definitely not something we do all the time. I suppose its for more advanced students as half the time the problem with beginners is that they do back up all the time. But I do think it has its merit and should be considered. You know, maybe you've been attacked but you know that right behind you is a broom or something else you could use as an improvised weapon and you want to grab it. Or your attacker's just pulled a knife and you want to create some distance.
Even when we're talking competition going backwards is good. For example, when you have a shorter and larger person fighting, the tactic for the smaller person is almost always get inside and shut them down. So sometimes a good option for the larger person if this happens is to move backwards and free up some room.
But of course, along with going forwards, you have to learn to move effectively and not just run back any old how.
_________________
"Everything has its beauty, but not everyone sees it." ~ Confucius |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
JusticeZero
Black Belt
Joined: 02 Apr 2005
Posts: 2166
Location: AK
Styles: Capoeira Angola
|
| Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 12:54 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I have no problem with creating distance. I have a problem with doing it by retreating backwards. Going forwards at an angle that places you in a different place that is further from your opponent is a tactic I use all the time, as is adjusting my base foot/post slightly backwards in order to use an attack at the correct range. There are several techniques that start by shifting the torso onto the back foot to outrange an attack; these lead into attacks and do not involve a retreat of the feet.
_________________
"Anything worth doing is worth doing badly." - Baleia |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
DWx
Black Belt
Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 6455
Location: UK
Styles: Tae Kwon Do & Yang family Tai Chi
|
| Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 1:04 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Well that's kinda what I'm asking - taking several steps back. Not just shifting onto the back foot but taking several steps back. Why do you/does your style consider backwards to be such a bad thing? In TKD its perfectly ok to take several steps backwards.
_________________
"Everything has its beauty, but not everyone sees it." ~ Confucius |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JusticeZero
Black Belt
Joined: 02 Apr 2005
Posts: 2166
Location: AK
Styles: Capoeira Angola
|
| Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 1:24 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Get some of the white belts from your class. Go outside into some unprepared area with obstacles and curbs and rocks and things. Make a circle of people, preferably two or three layers thick and crowded together, about five meters across, in a reasonably clear patch. Now get in the middle of it and spar for several minutes without stopping without crashing into anyone or tripping over a trash can or rock or curb. See if you can pull it off while running backwards all the time, in particular.
The world does not consist of big flat featureless dance floors everywhere. Much like you can't just go blindly throwing attacks without any concept of targets or intervening defenses, if you want to move you need to be able to plan that movement out. Unless you look away, you can't get any information about that space, and it's no different from blindly flinging a telegraphic attack with no idea of what might be at the other end.
If you would agree that closing your eyes, looking away, and throwing a haymaker at an aikidoka might not be the height of tactical genius, you can see how blindly running backward might be a bad idea.
_________________
"Anything worth doing is worth doing badly." - Baleia |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
tallgeese
Black Belt
Joined: 04 May 2008
Posts: 6879
Location: McHenry County, IL
Styles: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Bujin Bugei Jutsu, Gokei Ryu Kempo Jutsu, MMA, Shootfighting, boxing, kickboxing, JKD, Pekiti Tersia Kali
|
| Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 2:38 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I agree with Justice about the environmental factors, they are important to consider when making distance.
Another reason that backing straight up for multiple steps, for me and the arts I come out of, is a less than optimal choice is because it does nothing to change the angle between you and your attacker. He can continue to press in a straight line and press his forward attack and you're relying on blocking or evading to not get hit. By moving back and cutting angles, you chance the angle he needs to vector on to hit you. This keeps you safer. Those angle changes often open him up for your counters as well.
So, if I have to go back (and like Justice I'd rather cut angles going forward) I'd much rather cut them to an angle than move in a straight line back. I'm in a position moving straight that he and I are in the same position to hit one another. If I move to an angle, I increase my position to hit him and momentarily reduce his angle to hit me. It's another form of positional dominance.
I don't want to be even with my attacker, I want to be at an advantage always. Angles give me a slight advantage against a forward pressure.
I'll never say I won't gain distance. My reflex is to close to clinch, but I never say never. For instance, I train to gain distance to clear a weapon. It's an important skill if you carry one. However, I'll still work angles to the incoming attack to make that happen.
_________________
http://alphajiujitsu.com/
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJhRVuwbm__LwXPvFMReMww |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
shadowspawn
Orange Belt
Joined: 09 Mar 2012
Posts: 108
|
| Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 4:31 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| As long as every movement has a specific tactical purpose, I don't see why it would be a bad idea. Our sensei always instructed us to always move forward. Even when sidestepping, we try to move at a maximum angle of 90 degrees when facing the opponent. The idea being to "bully" the opponent into backing off and then cornering him as he can't stop his backwards momentum. Still I have seen some white crane practitioners who deliberately take two steps back to get your momentum coming forward and, similarly to aikido, pivot out at the last second and take you out. Typically speaking, moving backwards is a bad thing in a fight, but there are some styles I've encountered where backwards movement is an integral part of their style. I suppose as long as you know what you're doing, there's nothing terribly wrong with backwards movement (at least not any more so than other, IMO, ridiculous things like kicking for the head). |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16427
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
|
| Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 9:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Back peddling no more than 2-3 steps is acceptable for a Shindokan practitioner, but no more than that, because those 2-3 steps are going to be built into a Tai Sabaki movement, and in that, how it is going to be related to Ashi Sabaki and Te Sabaki as our Tuite unfolds.
Trusting to move off line at any given angle takes quite a lot of many things, and nerve is one of them. Especially when ones not moving in any direction(s) until the very last second so as to force one opponent to commit to their attacking line(s).
Creating cutting lines takes even more nerve and a lot of skill because not only is one waiting until the very last second, but ones cutting into the attack at a very close proximity to one opponents direction(s).
I still believe in never back peddling and I won't unless it opens lines and the like to my advantage. In Shindokan, I want to occupy the space that my opponent surrendered willingly to me.
_________________
**Proof is on the floor!!! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2468
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2016 5:14 pm Post subject: |
|
|
This topic was started a while back but will always be relevant.
Confrontations can happen in confined spaces, therefore to always practice as if there will always be lots of area to fight in, is practicing in a virtual way and is not taking in to account realities.
Moving backwards and borrowing the opponents force then combining it with your own, doesn't work effectively, because you will both be turning in the centrifugal pivoting point and both will fall down, like a couple does when falling on a dance floor. Or the momentum doesn't have sufficient energy to do much or it can backfire with the opponent switching the energy, like wrestlers would often do to each other, bouncing each other off the ropes.
Moving backwards and controlling the moment, it is possible to roll back on one's back and throw the opponent with the momentum head over heels. Using your foot (heel) in the opponent's chest; such as in a Judo throw.
When backing up or back peddling, there had better be a good reason for it, preference is to move forward faster than the opponent can move towards you; take the opponent's space and never give up yours.
Quick side stepping (getting off line) letting the opponent's energy breeze past you, puts you in the out flanking position against the opponent; from there you will have many options to choose from. In boxing it is called "The T position" due to the placement of both fighters feet.
In other words, be in a position that puts you in the advantage and simultaneously puts the opponent in the disadvantaged one.
Moving backwards is riskier than moving forwards; for many more reasons that can be possibly explained. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo
|
| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 6:57 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Alan Armstrong wrote: |
This topic was started a while back but will always be relevant.
Confrontations can happen in confined spaces, therefore to always practice as if there will always be lots of area to fight in, is practicing in a virtual way and is not taking in to account realities.
Moving backwards and borrowing the opponents force then combining it with your own, doesn't work effectively, because you will both be turning in the centrifugal pivoting point and both will fall down, like a couple does when falling on a dance floor. Or the momentum doesn't have sufficient energy to do much or it can backfire with the opponent switching the energy, like wrestlers would often do to each other, bouncing each other off the ropes.
Moving backwards and controlling the moment, it is possible to roll back on one's back and throw the opponent with the momentum head over heels. Using your foot (heel) in the opponent's chest; such as in a Judo throw.
When backing up or back peddling, there had better be a good reason for it, preference is to move forward faster than the opponent can move towards you; take the opponent's space and never give up yours.
Quick side stepping (getting off line) letting the opponent's energy breeze past you, puts you in the out flanking position against the opponent; from there you will have many options to choose from. In boxing it is called "The T position" due to the placement of both fighters feet.
In other words, be in a position that puts you in the advantage and simultaneously puts the opponent in the disadvantaged one.
Moving backwards is riskier than moving forwards; for many more reasons that can be possibly explained. |
There are many arguments why not to retreat, no power, can not react as fast, etc. etc.
However in my art we practice all directions. We are taught early on that there are 8 directions - north, south, east, west, north east, north west, south east and south west. If you were to look at a watch it would be 12, 1:30, 3, 4:30, 6, 7:30, 9, and 10:30.
There is a time and a place to step backwards. As Alan states sometimes you can not move backwards. However if you receive your opponents attack and move backwards at even a slight angle you can un-balance or just redirect their force.
I do not care to move forward or backwards in a straight line to or away from my opponent because it gives them the advantage. I rather move off of their line so that I am beside or behind them. In this way it makes it more difficult for the attacker and gives the advantage to me.
Just my 2 cents on the topic for what little it's worth. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2016 4:48 am Post subject: |
|
|
Knowing how to move backwards safely is important to learn, in case it needs to be done. When I train guys for DT, I don't recommend moving backwards, though. Its important to know how to do it right, but I think its better to be moving forward.
_________________
www.haysgym.com
http://www.sunyis.com/
www.aikidoofnorthwestkansas.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
on the post.
