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cheesefrysamurai
Purple Belt
Joined: 06 Mar 2013
Posts: 502
Location: New Jersey
Styles: Okinawan Goju Ryu
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 Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 8:11 pm Post subject: |
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Goju Kai has more Japanese influence then Okinawan Goju Ryu. For better or worse there are differences.
There are elements that tie most Japanese karate styles together. These elements are present in Goju Kai. Different focus.
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Wado Heretic
Green Belt
Joined: 23 May 2014
Posts: 497
Location: United Kingdom
Styles: Wado-Ryu , Kobayashi Shorin-Ryu (Kodokan), RyuKyu Kobojutsu
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| Posted: Sat May 05, 2018 7:44 am Post subject: |
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As mentioned prior, Goku-Kai can readily be considered the Japanese Branch of Okinawan Goju-Ryu. There are not many fundamental differences, but there are a handful of key differences.
Goju-Kai has a series of Kihon-Gata named Taikyoku. Inspired by, and influenced by, the kata series of the same name by Funakoshi Gichin, but those used in Goju-Kai are the invention of Yamaguchi Gōgen. As in Shotokan, they are beginner kata and they are usually taught prior to the Gekisai Kata. In comparison to Goju-Ryu, where the Gekisai Kata are either the foundational Kata, or omitted from the syllabus entirely; depending on when the founder of the branch graduated from training with Miyagi Chojun.
To continue from this; Sanchin, Tensho, and Saifa, alongside Gekisai, are considered the foundational kata of Goju-Ryu, and one can expect to start studying Sanchin from day one. In contrast, in Goju-Kai and Japanese Goju-Ryu in general, one will not begin serious study of Sanchin until after the Taikyoku-Gata and Gekisai or around Rokyu or Gokyu. Similarly, Saifa is often considered the first “Adavanced” kata in contrast to it being foundational in Okinawan Goju-Ryu.
Beside differences in kata practice, Goju-Kai generally places more emphasis on Yakusoku Kumite and Jiyu Kumite, and although there is also practice of bunkai it is not the primary focus. In contrast, in Okinawan Goju-Ryu, almost all Kumite is related to the process of Bunkai. Another contrast is that Goju-Kai competition is more likely to be inline with WKO style competition, but Okinawan Goju-Ryu is largely involved in Full-Contact or Knock-Down rules.
Also, Goju-Kai is perhaps, alongside Kyokushin, the most focused on Hojo Undo it is still very limited in contrast to Okinawan Goju-Ryu. This is where the primary difference, in what I have observed, differs between the two. Much is made of Hojo Undo and conditioning the body on Okinawa, but Goju-Kai seems to have an approach more balanced between the three Ks; Kihon, Kumite, and Kata.
Lastly; Goju-Kai today seems to omit Kobudo/Kobujutsu practice, where as on Okinawa the practices are still intimately entwined.
I will add that this is very much a case of an outsider looking in. I have witnessed, and trained alongside both Goju-Kai and Okinawan Goju-Ryu practitioners so I felt I could make a relatively fair comparison but I would take my words with a grain of salt. Also, all Dojo/Clubs/Gyms differ in the way all instructors differ. I would happily gamble that there is a Goju-Kai instructor out there that could intimidate a Goju-Ryu practitioner with his passion for physical conditioning.
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R. Keith Williams |
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cheesefrysamurai
Purple Belt
Joined: 06 Mar 2013
Posts: 502
Location: New Jersey
Styles: Okinawan Goju Ryu
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| Posted: Sun May 06, 2018 11:00 am Post subject: |
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There are differences in the execution of the kata as well. Different mentality.
Does anyone know how long Yamaguchi Sensei trained with Miyagi Sensei? How many hard years?
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Wado Heretic
Green Belt
Joined: 23 May 2014
Posts: 497
Location: United Kingdom
Styles: Wado-Ryu , Kobayashi Shorin-Ryu (Kodokan), RyuKyu Kobojutsu
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| Posted: Mon May 07, 2018 10:20 am Post subject: |
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Of relevant records, very little direct training indeed. The only confirmed training was for brief periods of a few months at the Ritsumeikan in 1935 and 36. Yamaguchi Gogen probably received the majority of his early training from Yogi Jitsuei, who himself at most may have studied under Miyagi Chojun for at most five years. Yamaguchi, according to Higoanna Morio, did later under go more training under Meitoku Yagi, but this training could have also happened in the thirties. The matter is a little confused by contradictions produced by differing accounts.
It is largely accepted that Goju-Kai is the invention of Yamaguchi, and his associates So Neichu and Yogi Jitsuei, but that it has strong roots in Goju-Ryu. Personally, I consider it one of the Japanese Branches of Goju-Ryu, but not "The" Japanese Goju-Ryu that some do. Authentic Japanese Goju-Ryu largely starts at Yoyogi Dojo and Higoanna Morio's efforts in Tokyo.
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JR 137
Black Belt
Joined: 10 May 2015
Posts: 2442
Location: In the dojo
Styles: Seido Juku
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| Posted: Mon May 07, 2018 12:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Wado Heretic wrote: |
Of relevant records, very little direct training indeed. The only confirmed training was for brief periods of a few months at the Ritsumeikan in 1935 and 36. Yamaguchi Gogen probably received the majority of his early training from Yogi Jitsuei, who himself at most may have studied under Miyagi Chojun for at most five years. Yamaguchi, according to Higoanna Morio, did later under go more training under Meitoku Yagi, but this training could have also happened in the thirties. The matter is a little confused by contradictions produced by differing accounts.
It is largely accepted that Goju-Kai is the invention of Yamaguchi, and his associates So Neichu and Yogi Jitsuei, but that it has strong roots in Goju-Ryu. Personally, I consider it one of the Japanese Branches of Goju-Ryu, but not "The" Japanese Goju-Ryu that some do. Authentic Japanese Goju-Ryu largely starts at Yoyogi Dojo and Higoanna Morio's efforts in Tokyo. |
In an interview, Meitoku Yagi claimed that Yamaguchi came to him several times for kata instruction after Miyagi’s death. Yamaguchi was apparently interested in preserving Miyagi’s kata as much as possible, and he considered Yagi the foremost authority on Miyagi’s kata. The Miyagi family gave Yagi Miyagi’s belt and gi following Miyagi’s death, thereby officially recognizing him as the head of Goju Ryu.
As to how much Yamaguchi actually trained under Miyagi, that’s the subject of much debate. What is clear is that Yamaguchi was chosen by Miyagi to be the head of Goju on mainland Japan. |
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Chunmonchek
Orange Belt
Joined: 10 May 2012
Posts: 177
Styles: Goju
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| Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 8:31 am Post subject: |
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| JR 137 wrote: |
| Wado Heretic wrote: |
Of relevant records, very little direct training indeed. The only confirmed training was for brief periods of a few months at the Ritsumeikan in 1935 and 36. Yamaguchi Gogen probably received the majority of his early training from Yogi Jitsuei, who himself at most may have studied under Miyagi Chojun for at most five years. Yamaguchi, according to Higoanna Morio, did later under go more training under Meitoku Yagi, but this training could have also happened in the thirties. The matter is a little confused by contradictions produced by differing accounts.
It is largely accepted that Goju-Kai is the invention of Yamaguchi, and his associates So Neichu and Yogi Jitsuei, but that it has strong roots in Goju-Ryu. Personally, I consider it one of the Japanese Branches of Goju-Ryu, but not "The" Japanese Goju-Ryu that some do. Authentic Japanese Goju-Ryu largely starts at Yoyogi Dojo and Higoanna Morio's efforts in Tokyo. |
In an interview, Meitoku Yagi claimed that Yamaguchi came to him several times for kata instruction after Miyagi’s death. Yamaguchi was apparently interested in preserving Miyagi’s kata as much as possible, and he considered Yagi the foremost authority on Miyagi’s kata. The Miyagi family gave Yagi Miyagi’s belt and gi following Miyagi’s death, thereby officially recognizing him as the head of Goju Ryu.
As to how much Yamaguchi actually trained under Miyagi, that’s the subject of much debate. What is clear is that Yamaguchi was chosen by Miyagi to be the head of Goju on mainland Japan. |
1. Yamaguchi Sensei did visit/train at the Meibukan on a number of occasions. I've seen the photos from Yagi Meitatsu's personal photo albums. I can't speak to the amount of actual training nor its depth though.
2. Regarding the scissors take down, we train a variant in our ground work. |
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