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brennan the rabbit
White Belt
White Belt

Joined: 21 Nov 2016
Posts: 12
Location: hamilton ontario
Styles: wing chun goju ryu

PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 9:52 pm    Post subject: gojuryu and bujikan Reply with quote

would training in gojuryu and bujikan be a good or bad idea would they conflict with each other
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Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 2242
Location: Dallas, TX
Styles: Matsumura-Seito, Shobayashi-Ryu, Shudokan, Long Fist, American Street Karate, Southern Mantis, HEMA

PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2017 8:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't really know enough about Bujikan to answer that question. However, what rank are you in Goju Ryu? I would say that the length of time you have done it is more important. Any new system will bring with it a demand for new muscle memory, and it might be frustrating as you're trying to work against your existing muscle memory to do those techniques properly.

I suggest that you talk with you CI about it. They will know, better than us, if it matches closely, and whether or not it would be viable to do for you.
Martial arts training is 30% classroom training, 70% solo training.
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KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16246
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2017 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, both are MA, and imho, they're polar opposites to one another just from the face value of either of them.

Having said that, cross training is about learning something of value to the practitioner...YOU...and applying it effectively. They both desire the perfection of effective movements across the board.

Take what is useful, discard the rest.

Would they conflict one another? To me, that again depends on the practitioners current knowledge and experience. A beginner in either of these MA, will not know about subtle differences between them, and that can lead to the deer caught in the headlights mindset. However, if you've, for example, have a black belt in, i.e. Goju, then you'll be approaching the Bujikan with an eye towards details and understanding about the MA, and not have any preconceived notions about what to expect.

Do they mix well together? I believe that varies with the practitioner, and not with either of the styles.

Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Go visit whichever one you're interested in and go from there, but visit that school several times to get a more clearer picture of it.

Good luck, and please let us know what you decide.

**Proof is on the floor!!!
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KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30001
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR

PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not familiar with Bujikan, either. But, it just depends on your capacity to learn. If you feel you can do one without confusing the other, then by all means, go forward with it. But, you should really consider what it is you want to focus on in your MA training right now, and focus your energy into attaining that goal.
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Wado Heretic
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 23 May 2014
Posts: 494
Location: United Kingdom, England, Shropshire
Styles: Wado-Ryu , Kobayashi Shorin-Ryu (Kodokan), RyuKyu Kobojutsu

PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is Bujikan a relatively obscure school of karate, or is it an unintended misspelling of Bujinkan? One I cannot help you with, while the other I can perhaps offer a little advice.

If it is an obscure form of karate; if it is full-contact, or shuri/tomari te based, then you might find it an effective addition to your Goju-Ryu training. Again; as other have said, you should consider your time, and whether it is more effective to divide your time, or focus purely on Goju-Ryu. Perhaps go to a lesson or two, and see if it does anything different; if not, it is perhaps not worth it.

If it is Bujinkan then I would say this; you will probably not learn anything barring some grappling techniques and some specific weapons, in Bujinkan that you would not find in Goju-Ryu. Goju-ryu also tends to have more realistic sparring, and self-defence, as well in my experience with it's practitioners.

The issue with the Takamatsu Den (The Nine Schools of the Bujinkan) is that of determining their authenticity. The schools of Kukishinden-Ryu, and Takagi Yoshin-Ryu, are likely authentic as there is significant evidence of Takamatsu being involved, and instructing, in these arts. Similarly; there is evidence of the main-lines acknowledging Takamatsu as a representative instructor of Kukishinden-Ryu and Takagi Yoshin-Ryu. It should also be remembered that for several generations the schools of Kukishinden-Ryu and Takagi Yoshin-Ryu were deeply intertwined even before Takamatsu and the later Bujinkan. Takamatsu was also recognised as an expert in Bojutsu and Jujutsu, the key disciplines of Kukishinden-Ryu and Takagi Yoshin-Ryu respectively, when he became a member of the Minoku Seinen Botoku-kai (Modern Budokan). As such; I believe there is little doubt that these two schools are authentic, and remain so even as part of the Bujinkan.

However; there is much ambiguity regarding the other claimed schools. Takamatsu likely did have training in Shinden Fudo-Ryu; it was readily available in his day and age, and was even practised in Britain at the turn of the century thanks to the efforts of one Barton Wright. Yet; there is little evidence to support Takamatsu being an actual expert in the discipline. Furthermore, there is little evidence of historical schools identifying themselves as Koto-Ryu, Gyokko-Ryu, or Gikan-Ryu thus bringing into doubt these schools of Koppo and Kosshi jutsu. Indeed, they are largely claimed to be source arts for Togakure-ryu, the core ninpo school of the Bujinkan; a system largely considered fraudulent with regards to claims about it's heritage, further bringing in to doubt any discipline associated with it. Also; the other Ninpo disciplines are similarly judged to be fraudulent with regards to their lineage claims.

All this said; it should be about whether a martial art is effective, and can add to your training. There is a letter from Takamatsu to the head of the Kukishinden-Ryu, requesting permission to add karate like elements to the jujutsu of Kukishinden-ryu and Takagi Yoshin-Ryu, based on his experiences in China. Similarly; Takamatsu was an open critic of Judo technique, and as such I believe he modified his jujutsu to answer the emerging martial paradigm as set by Karate, Judo, Kenpo, and Gendai Budo in general.

To summarise what I have said; there are only two authentic schools in the Bujinkan, and they have probably been modified significantly in response to Karate and Judo. As such, you are unlikely to find any thing in the Bujinkan that you will not find in Goju-Ryu, and with far less propaganda.
R. Keith Williams

A Rarely Used Blog:
An Uncertain Path
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Orange Belt
Orange Belt

Joined: 06 May 2022
Posts: 177

PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2022 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Training bukjinkan is a bad idea no matter what. Itís all a made up modern fraud.
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