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tallgeese
KF Sensei
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Joined: 04 May 2008
Posts: 6852
Location: McHenry County, IL
Styles: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Bujin Bugei Jutsu, Gokei Ryu Kempo Jutsu, MMA, Shootfighting, boxing, kickboxing, JKD, Pekiti Tersia Kali

PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 12:45 am    Post subject: Ground Fighting Conflict Reply with quote

Had a video that came to my attention a couple of weeks ago that took me some time to find in a shareable format. Below is a camera phone video of a police conflict where a second offender joins the fray.

There are about 20 things you could take out of this video and take as training points. We've been doing it. However, the one I wanted to bring up on this forum is the application (or lack thereof) of combative use ground fighting.

I've heard I don't know how many coworkers talk about not wanting to train ground fighting because they will just hit the suspect. Likewise, I hear a lot of martial artist use the argument of not wanting to go to the ground in a street fight as a reason to shy away from training in a ground fighting art.

First up, here is the link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFFsWF3FoLI

You can see by the portion that takes place on the ground that the officer on his back has little training in a ground form of combat. Here's my point, even if you don't want to be on the ground you might end up there anyway.

You'll note the bottom officer tries to utilize strikes, including the eye gouge, multiple times to little effect. It's due to his position being so bad, something that stand up only artist will say, but rarely understand the depth of.

This is a perfect example of the need for integrating grappling training into whatever you are doing. Escape from here (which is the worst side control/ head lock in the history of mankind) could be a much easier matter with minimal training. Thus allowing the officer not to continue to grapple with the offender (although in this situation I would argue that, that would not be a horrible idea) but to stand and access his other weapons.

I thought this video coming to light was excellent for many points to debrief out of it. For martial artist, it is a real world example of what many have said since UFC 1. Grappling is important.
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MasterPain
Black Belt
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Joined: 26 Oct 2010
Posts: 1949
Location: Parts Unknown
Styles: Bujin Bugei Jutsu, Backyard Kali, Satsui no Hadou

PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 2:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It amazes me the way people keep their head in the sand about training at different ranges. Especially for someone whose job involves controlling another person or persons.

Whats the thought process here? "Let's just assume we can get back to our feet, and when that doesn't work just attempt to maim, ineffectually, because we can't be bothered to learn a shrimp curl." This actually really bothers me. Why not just be incompetent at everything but shooting? Martial arts are obsoleted by gunpowder after all. We can just shoot anyone who doesn't put the cuffs on themselves. Because cuffing involves grappling and grappling is a bad idea. REALLY?!

I don't want to grapple someone in the street. Neither do I want to strike them, or stab them for that matter. That's part of why I'm not a cop. I don't want to fight anyone. I want to know how to defend myself, anyway. If I were to be a cop, which DOES involve fighting people, I'd want to be even better at it. Especially grappling.
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Groinstrike
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Joined: 26 Oct 2010
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Location: Richland County
Styles: Bujin Bugei Jutsu, Krav Maga, Jeet Kune Do, BJJ M

PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 9:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

First of all, the second that the second guy jumps the cops, two or three other officers jump in. My question is what were the other officers doing when they were off camera, because they sure weren't securing or checking the perimeter and watching there fellow officers backs.

We have students that have only trained grappling for a few months that could have shrimped up and swept that guy.

So much trouble, paperwork and potential lawsuits could have been avoided if this officer had even a basic understanding of position. As a potential LEO it disturbs me that a percentage of officers are not serious about there competence on the ground. Not only for their safety but the safety of the citizens they protect. The suspect would have been saved a potential traumatic head injury if this guy just could have executed a basic sweep.
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ShoriKid
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Joined: 14 Dec 2007
Posts: 897

Styles: Matsubyashi-Ryu, Okinawan Kempo, wrestling, bits of BJJ

PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just...wow, that was really bad. I'm not in law enforcement, but I flinched watching the initial cuffing attempt before the second person jumped in. A lot was wrong that I saw on a common sense and basic tactics perspective. I'm sure that you're getting something to look at, train and discuss just on that part Tallgeese.

When the second person dives into the fray you get a real abject lesson on why you need at least basic ground training if you're going to potentially be a fight/defense situation. A little bump, shrimp and the officer on his back could have gotten out of that position.

I'm right with everyone so far on this. I'm a stand up guy, primarily, and I love ground training. Heck, the first "art" that I trained was wrestling in high school. I train in what I call a "traditional" way with karate, but we incorporate basic ground skills into our syllabus. It's required as part of gradings, and we spend a fair amount of time with it. I've explained to our guys that we're a stand up school, not a grappling school. But, that if you want to keep the fight on your feet and be serious about learning to take care of yourself, you have to have enough skill on the ground to survive. I laughingly tell them I haven't spent almost 20 years learning to hit you better to have a guy hit me with a football tackle or sloppy double leg and take all that time and effort away from me.
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bushido_man96
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Joined: 31 Mar 2006
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Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

All valid, excellent points, tallgeese. I've had a discussion with my DT partner just recently, and showed a different video to him, but one of a former high school state Wrestler taking an officer down on the street, striking him several times, before the officer fought away and used his Taser to bring the guy down.

I told him it was "why we needed to learn ground fighting." He told me he wanted to focus more on staying off the ground, and one comment he made was that officers won't go to 3 classes a week, and he won't be able to teach a complete system.

I told him that you don't need a whole system, but there are things that can be trained so when officers do end up on the ground, they will at least have some exposure and a plan to get heading in the right direction.

I'm not sure he's buying it yet, but I will keep working on it.
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Liver Punch
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Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 417
Location: Snake Mountain
Styles: Bujin Bugei Jutsu, Pro Wrestling, Gun-Fu

PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 7:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm all for "staying off the ground" (in MMA, it's a skill that I bank on) and I think that for guys in law enforcement, learning sweeps, reversals, and defense from their back should be at the top of the list in Jiu Jitsu.

As for the "staying off the ground" portion, that requires not necessarily Jiu Jitsu, but at least two varieties of wrestling. The point is that "just learning how to not end up on the ground" isn't any less time or effort consuming than learning how to fight once you get there.

I would think that the grappling portion a martial art aimed at LEOs would be heavy on defensive collegiate and greco wrestling, have a touch of judo and sambo principals thrown in, and then reversals and defense from BJJ.

If a guy can take you down and hit you with his bare hands, he can do the same thing with a knife in his hand. That's a pretty scary concept.
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tallgeese
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Joined: 04 May 2008
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Location: McHenry County, IL
Styles: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Bujin Bugei Jutsu, Gokei Ryu Kempo Jutsu, MMA, Shootfighting, boxing, kickboxing, JKD, Pekiti Tersia Kali

PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bushido_man96 wrote:
All valid, excellent points, tallgeese. I've had a discussion with my DT partner just recently, and showed a different video to him, but one of a former high school state Wrestler taking an officer down on the street, striking him several times, before the officer fought away and used his Taser to bring the guy down.

I told him it was "why we needed to learn ground fighting." He told me he wanted to focus more on staying off the ground, and one comment he made was that officers won't go to 3 classes a week, and he won't be able to teach a complete system.

I told him that you don't need a whole system, but there are things that can be trained so when officers do end up on the ground, they will at least have some exposure and a plan to get heading in the right direction.

I'm not sure he's buying it yet, but I will keep working on it.


I too have run into that argument, bushido man. My point was that we don't study a full striking system either. Or a full standing joint position system either. That doesn't stop us from doing both. Let's compare baton training, anyone doing escrima for that? Nope, we have always taken parts we need to use and trained them for law enforcement. About the only thing we do train a complete system on (if you've got a good training budget and department-and that's not always the case) is handgunning. That's due to the huge liability involved with their use.

If you can get that video you're talking about, bushidoman, please post it. I'm always looking for stuff to use in training.
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bushido_man96
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All valid points, tg, and one's I've had in mind, as well. The new head DT guy at our academy has some of the BJJ basics he shows, and he did a class for us a few years back in which the moves were introduced, and after drilling, we did some series rolling, doing different postions, reversals, locks, etc. Really simple stuff that could be good stuff to spend time on, and not terribly complex.

Here is the video I was addressing with my DT partner. It was on PoliceOne.com.

http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.policeone.com%2Fless-lethal%2Farticles%2F4480715-Video-Suspect-wrestles-cop-to-the-ground%2F&h=QAQEnBAnAAQEH7pOU2gDJIKj1fSwW-Wwih64mwwUfv4yBow
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tallgeese
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Styles: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Bujin Bugei Jutsu, Gokei Ryu Kempo Jutsu, MMA, Shootfighting, boxing, kickboxing, JKD, Pekiti Tersia Kali

PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, bushidoman. I will make use of this as well.
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bushido_man96
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anytime, tg.
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