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TJ-Jitsu
Blue Belt
Blue Belt

Joined: 30 Sep 2014
Posts: 316
Location: PA
Styles: Gracie Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai

PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:11 pm    Post subject: Guard strategy Reply with quote

So what say you for your guard strategy? What are you trying to do from each guard, be it half, full or butterfly? Are you of the opinion that any one guard is superior to the other? If not why not? And if so why so?

Finally the age old question: should you be fighting to sweep or submit? 😉
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Tempest
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 31 Aug 2006
Posts: 422
Location: Tulsa, OK
Styles: Judo, HEMA

PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Depends on if my opponent stands in my guard or stays low. If they stay low, I like knee shield, but if they stand I tend to work towards De Le Riva.

Personally, I always work towards the sweep and if the sub presents itself I take it.

I am pretty basic from half guard. I want the leg side underhook and out of there.

I typically only do butterfly to throw people off or to set up my Del la Riva, so not much from that.

I don't think one is superior, I tend to be of the opinion you have to play with all of them SOME to see what works with your game. Since I tend to play a very position heavy game, without many leg-locks, I don't tend to work the fancier guards very much. Though they are obviously effective for those that use them.

Now as to what you SHOULD be doing? Please see the interview with John Danaher that I posted to our other discussion regarding this. I think we should be fighting for control.
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TJ-Jitsu
Blue Belt
Blue Belt

Joined: 30 Sep 2014
Posts: 316
Location: PA
Styles: Gracie Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai

PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tempest wrote:
Depends on if my opponent stands in my guard or stays low. If they stay low, I like knee shield, but if they stand I tend to work towards De Le Riva.

Personally, I always work towards the sweep and if the sub presents itself I take it.

I am pretty basic from half guard. I want the leg side underhook and out of there.

I typically only do butterfly to throw people off or to set up my Del la Riva, so not much from that.

I don't think one is superior, I tend to be of the opinion you have to play with all of them SOME to see what works with your game. Since I tend to play a very position heavy game, without many leg-locks, I don't tend to work the fancier guards very much. Though they are obviously effective for those that use them.

Now as to what you SHOULD be doing? Please see the interview with John Danaher that I posted to our other discussion regarding this. I think we should be fighting for control.


Youíll have to forgive me for not watching that interview. Itís over 2 hours long. Is that John Dannahers suggestion and words? Fight for control?
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Tempest
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 31 Aug 2006
Posts: 422
Location: Tulsa, OK
Styles: Judo, HEMA

PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is. I know it is long. But it really is pretty good and quite relevant to the other discussion.

Plus, you get to see a Phd make Joe Rogan shut up for a bit.

So, realistically, when I am rolling, I look for positions that make me more comfortable and my opponent more uncomfortable.

And to be more, faithful, to what professor Danaher said, his suggestion is to isolate the positions of control from the actual attack and to focus on establishing a position of control regardless of your relative body positions, then attack.

He uses the example of Gordan Ryan destroying Cyborg as an illustration of this principle with regards to his leg-lock system.
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darsksideofthemat.blogspot.com
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tallgeese
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 04 May 2008
Posts: 6851
Location: McHenry County, IL
Styles: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Bujin Bugei Jutsu, Gokei Ryu Kempo Jutsu, MMA, Shootfighting, boxing, kickboxing, JKD, Pekiti Tersia Kali

PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:21 am    Post subject: Re: Guard strategy Reply with quote

TJ-Jitsu wrote:
So what say you for your guard strategy? What are you trying to do from each guard, be it half, full or butterfly? Are you of the opinion that any one guard is superior to the other? If not why not? And if so why so?

Finally the age old question: should you be fighting to sweep or submit? ��


Distance control is the answer for each and every guard. Either opening or closing, which will lead to you a set of tactics for each. The application of which one will depend on you, him, the situation, and environment.

My favorite is the one that the door is open to. I'm partial to butterfly and spider for the simple reason that those are the ones I like, so I drill them more, hence I am more reliable with them across a wider array of situations.

Superior depends on situation and the training of each fighter. I do think everyone needs a solid closed guard game. It's the one you'll want when all else falls apart.

Sweep or submit? What the situation, what's your partner doing, what are your goals in the encounter, and what have you trained the most. No right or wrong.
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TJ-Jitsu
Blue Belt
Blue Belt

Joined: 30 Sep 2014
Posts: 316
Location: PA
Styles: Gracie Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai

PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tempest wrote:
It is. I know it is long. But it really is pretty good and quite relevant to the other discussion.

Plus, you get to see a Phd make Joe Rogan shut up for a bit.

So, realistically, when I am rolling, I look for positions that make me more comfortable and my opponent more uncomfortable.

And to be more, faithful, to what professor Danaher said, his suggestion is to isolate the positions of control from the actual attack and to focus on establishing a position of control regardless of your relative body positions, then attack.

He uses the example of Gordan Ryan destroying Cyborg as an illustration of this principle with regards to his leg-lock system.


Iíve listened to some of it, but Iíll be completely honest here (surprising, I know.... ). I donít think itís the best strategy for fighting from guard. I think itís great for catch wrestling but counter to Jiu Jitsu.
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TJ-Jitsu
Blue Belt
Blue Belt

Joined: 30 Sep 2014
Posts: 316
Location: PA
Styles: Gracie Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai

PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:53 am    Post subject: Re: Guard strategy Reply with quote

tallgeese wrote:
TJ-Jitsu wrote:
So what say you for your guard strategy? What are you trying to do from each guard, be it half, full or butterfly? Are you of the opinion that any one guard is superior to the other? If not why not? And if so why so?

Finally the age old question: should you be fighting to sweep or submit? ��


Distance control is the answer for each and every guard. Either opening or closing, which will lead to you a set of tactics for each. The application of which one will depend on you, him, the situation, and environment.

My favorite is the one that the door is open to. I'm partial to butterfly and spider for the simple reason that those are the ones I like, so I drill them more, hence I am more reliable with them across a wider array of situations.

Superior depends on situation and the training of each fighter. I do think everyone needs a solid closed guard game. It's the one you'll want when all else falls apart.

Sweep or submit? What the situation, what's your partner doing, what are your goals in the encounter, and what have you trained the most. No right or wrong.


I like it. I agree with the idea of "no right or wrong." My jiu jitsu improved drastically when I stopped saying right or wrong... but did start saying "more or less efficient."
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Tempest
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 31 Aug 2006
Posts: 422
Location: Tulsa, OK
Styles: Judo, HEMA

PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TJ-Jitsu wrote:
Tempest wrote:
It is. I know it is long. But it really is pretty good and quite relevant to the other discussion.

Plus, you get to see a Phd make Joe Rogan shut up for a bit.

So, realistically, when I am rolling, I look for positions that make me more comfortable and my opponent more uncomfortable.

And to be more, faithful, to what professor Danaher said, his suggestion is to isolate the positions of control from the actual attack and to focus on establishing a position of control regardless of your relative body positions, then attack.

He uses the example of Gordan Ryan destroying Cyborg as an illustration of this principle with regards to his leg-lock system.


Iíve listened to some of it, but Iíll be completely honest here (surprising, I know.... ). I donít think itís the best strategy for fighting from guard. I think itís great for catch wrestling but counter to Jiu Jitsu.


Perhaps... but what I have found is that it works. If I put my opponent in, for example, bottom side control, but they are defending the submission and just kind of stalling me there, if I make them hold my weight and then work slowly towards a better position, my opponent is more likely to give me something trying to get out than if I just sit there.
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Think first, act second, and stop getting the two confused.

darsksideofthemat.blogspot.com
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TJ-Jitsu
Blue Belt
Blue Belt

Joined: 30 Sep 2014
Posts: 316
Location: PA
Styles: Gracie Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai

PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tempest wrote:
TJ-Jitsu wrote:
Tempest wrote:
It is. I know it is long. But it really is pretty good and quite relevant to the other discussion.

Plus, you get to see a Phd make Joe Rogan shut up for a bit.

So, realistically, when I am rolling, I look for positions that make me more comfortable and my opponent more uncomfortable.

And to be more, faithful, to what professor Danaher said, his suggestion is to isolate the positions of control from the actual attack and to focus on establishing a position of control regardless of your relative body positions, then attack.

He uses the example of Gordan Ryan destroying Cyborg as an illustration of this principle with regards to his leg-lock system.


Iíve listened to some of it, but Iíll be completely honest here (surprising, I know.... ). I donít think itís the best strategy for fighting from guard. I think itís great for catch wrestling but counter to Jiu Jitsu.


Perhaps... but what I have found is that it works. If I put my opponent in, for example, bottom side control, but they are defending the submission and just kind of stalling me there, if I make them hold my weight and then work slowly towards a better position, my opponent is more likely to give me something trying to get out than if I just sit there.


Oh I'm far from denying that it works- its a great idea and a great strategy, I just wouldn't trade for mine tbh....
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