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singularity6
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MatsuShinshii wrote:
Tradition weapons Kata and modern tournaments is an oxymoron. These things do not go hand and hand.

As DWx said, what is typically seen has no relation to actual use of the weapons involved, at least in the traditional sense. If your spinning around Nunchaku like Bruce Lee or twirling your Rokushaku like your a helicopter preparing to take off, this is not traditional not practical for actual self defense much less traditional Kata.

Maybe he was a soldier or Marine and was showing off his rifle CQC skills.


If it truly was a traditional tournament then a gun would have no place in Kobudo (Muto) kata. However in staying with the traditions of the original founders, anything can be used as a weapon in the hands of a skilled martial artist.

I was once at a tournament (Traditional) when I was younger that a participant was told that he could not demonstrate the Jiffa (Okinawan Hair Pins) which seemed very strange considering that Kusanku was often performed with Jiffa by the founders. What could be more traditional than that? The verdict was that it was not considered a weapon.

It really depends on the tournament, definition of traditional and who is making the decisions. Most modern practitioners would only categorize the big five as traditional (Rokushaku Bo, Tuifa, Sai, Nichogama and Nunchaku), leaving out the other traditional weapons. Some of which are much older than the five classic weapons and some would say more traditional.


Heh, I'd be surprised if he were older than 14. Good thought, though.
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JR 137
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What the organizers should have done before this was an issue is state specifically which weapons are allowed.

In addition to MatsuShinshii's five listed kobudo weapons, I'd say Eku (oar) is pretty well recognized. You don't see it often as most people with experience with it are usually higher rank, such as 4th dan. Maybe I'm off with that assumption though.

I wonder how a judging panel would react to a timbe and rochin (Okinawa shield and sword). I've seen pictures and a video, but I've never seen it in person. I think it's one of those things everyone's heard of, yet no one's really seen. How would a judge something they've never seen before? Has anyone seen it used at a tournament? What about a nunte bo?
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singularity6
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Styles: Jidokwan Taekwondo and Hapkido, Yoshokai Aikido, ZNIR Iaido, Kendo

PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, it was a tournament that consisted of schools from Northern Wisconsin, Michigan (Western and Northern Lower, and all of the Upper Peninsula) and a Canadian ITF team. We had a whole mix of forms, from various schools of TKD, Karate, Tang Soo Do, etc. It was organized by someone from the UP, and I think it was her first or second tournament. So, I'm sure there were kinks, which will be worked out in the future.
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sensei8
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JR 137 wrote:
What the organizers should have done before this was an issue is state specifically which weapons are allowed.

In addition to MatsuShinshii's five listed kobudo weapons, I'd say Eku (oar) is pretty well recognized. You don't see it often as most people with experience with it are usually higher rank, such as 4th dan. Maybe I'm off with that assumption though.

I wonder how a judging panel would react to a timbe and rochin (Okinawa shield and sword). I've seen pictures and a video, but I've never seen it in person. I think it's one of those things everyone's heard of, yet no one's really seen. How would a judge something they've never seen before? Has anyone seen it used at a tournament? What about a nunte bo?

Solid post!!

In my competition days yesteryear, whenever I was the Arbitrator of said tournament, I never saw an Eku or a Timbe/Rochin, and most of that was due to the specifics of said tournament as regarding what Kobudo was and wasn't allowed.

Me, being an practitioner of an Okinawan MA style, I would've completely enjoyed and appreciated to see a competitor wielding either of them.

I believe that those judges on said judging panels would still award appropriate points to said competitor who wielded one of them without never have seen one and/or practiced with one and/or having never judged either because, as we all know, there's wide parameters to judge accordingly.

For example, the very first time I judged a Musical Kata, I was awed at what I saw, however, I had to put that aside and judge accordingly to what that tournaments judging parameters laid out, and nothing else, for that division.



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JR 137
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sensei8 wrote:
JR 137 wrote:
What the organizers should have done before this was an issue is state specifically which weapons are allowed.

In addition to MatsuShinshii's five listed kobudo weapons, I'd say Eku (oar) is pretty well recognized. You don't see it often as most people with experience with it are usually higher rank, such as 4th dan. Maybe I'm off with that assumption though.

I wonder how a judging panel would react to a timbe and rochin (Okinawa shield and sword). I've seen pictures and a video, but I've never seen it in person. I think it's one of those things everyone's heard of, yet no one's really seen. How would a judge something they've never seen before? Has anyone seen it used at a tournament? What about a nunte bo?

Solid post!!

In my competition days yesteryear, whenever I was the Arbitrator of said tournament, I never saw an Eku or a Timbe/Rochin, and most of that was due to the specifics of said tournament as regarding what Kobudo was and wasn't allowed.

Me, being an practitioner of an Okinawan MA style, I would've completely enjoyed and appreciated to see a competitor wielding either of them.

I believe that those judges on said judging panels would still award appropriate points to said competitor who wielded one of them without never have seen one and/or practiced with one and/or having never judged either because, as we all know, there's wide parameters to judge accordingly.

For example, the very first time I judged a Musical Kata, I was awed at what I saw, however, I had to put that aside and judge accordingly to what that tournaments judging parameters laid out, and nothing else, for that division.




I saw Eku done twice. I recognized the kata from seeing my sensei at the time perform it.

My question of how do they judge a weapon they've never seen probably wasn't worded exactly as I meant it...

Assuming it's a tournament that only allows traditional kata, if the judges have never seen a timbe/rochin kata or a nunte bo kata before, how do they know it's really a traditional kata being performed and not something made up? Do they trust the competitor is being honest?
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singularity6
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Styles: Jidokwan Taekwondo and Hapkido, Yoshokai Aikido, ZNIR Iaido, Kendo

PostPosted: Sat Jul 22, 2017 4:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Strangely, there's 2 kobudo classes near me. It's a small town, our county has maybe 40k people, and there's typically not a lot of culture (95% white, 80% Christian, rural, so very homogeneous.)

Both classes teach Eku!
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sensei8
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 22, 2017 8:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JR 137 wrote:
sensei8 wrote:
JR 137 wrote:
What the organizers should have done before this was an issue is state specifically which weapons are allowed.

In addition to MatsuShinshii's five listed kobudo weapons, I'd say Eku (oar) is pretty well recognized. You don't see it often as most people with experience with it are usually higher rank, such as 4th dan. Maybe I'm off with that assumption though.

I wonder how a judging panel would react to a timbe and rochin (Okinawa shield and sword). I've seen pictures and a video, but I've never seen it in person. I think it's one of those things everyone's heard of, yet no one's really seen. How would a judge something they've never seen before? Has anyone seen it used at a tournament? What about a nunte bo?

Solid post!!

In my competition days yesteryear, whenever I was the Arbitrator of said tournament, I never saw an Eku or a Timbe/Rochin, and most of that was due to the specifics of said tournament as regarding what Kobudo was and wasn't allowed.

Me, being an practitioner of an Okinawan MA style, I would've completely enjoyed and appreciated to see a competitor wielding either of them.

I believe that those judges on said judging panels would still award appropriate points to said competitor who wielded one of them without never have seen one and/or practiced with one and/or having never judged either because, as we all know, there's wide parameters to judge accordingly.

For example, the very first time I judged a Musical Kata, I was awed at what I saw, however, I had to put that aside and judge accordingly to what that tournaments judging parameters laid out, and nothing else, for that division.




I saw Eku done twice. I recognized the kata from seeing my sensei at the time perform it.

My question of how do they judge a weapon they've never seen probably wasn't worded exactly as I meant it...

Assuming it's a tournament that only allows traditional kata, if the judges have never seen a timbe/rochin kata or a nunte bo kata before, how do they know it's really a traditional kata being performed and not something made up? Do they trust the competitor is being honest?

To the bold type above...

As an Arbitrator, I'd pose this very simple question to all of the assembled judges, just after I've read to them out loud the acceptable Kobudo weapons under the parameters of the Traditional Weapons Division...and if the Eku as well as the Timbre and Rochin is on the Traditional Weapons Division approved list, as determined by the Tournament Director.

"Are you familiar with all of these said Kobudo weapons that I've just announced?? If not, raise your hand!!"

Whomever raises their hand, are dismissed from any and all judging pool immediately, and thanked for their honest as well as their time.

If during the course of the tournament that I discover that a judge has misrepresented their familiarity of those previously mentioned acceptable Kobudo weapons, then that judge is forthwith dismissed immediately.

IF THAT'S THE DIRECTIONS OF THE TOURNAMENT DIRECTOR!!

However, I've been Arbitrator before at tournaments where there were NO approved Kobudo Weapons list available for the judging pool to read. Whenever that happened, I simply instructed the judging pool, if they are judging a Kobudo weapon that they're not familiar with, then keep this in mind...

Control of the weapon must be paramount and continuous at all times.

After that, judge said Kobudo weapon just like you would do with the one(s) that you're the most familiar. After all, no matter what type of Kobudo weapon it is, or might be, or appear to be, that said Kobudo weapon is the extension of ones body, and it must be in control at all times. That's how I'd judge either of them if I hadn't ever seen either of them before.

Don't judge the book by its cover. Same to Kobudo...don't judge the Kobudo weapon by its look, no matter how familiar it might or might not be.





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JR 137
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 22, 2017 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sensei8 wrote:
JR 137 wrote:
sensei8 wrote:
JR 137 wrote:
What the organizers should have done before this was an issue is state specifically which weapons are allowed.

In addition to MatsuShinshii's five listed kobudo weapons, I'd say Eku (oar) is pretty well recognized. You don't see it often as most people with experience with it are usually higher rank, such as 4th dan. Maybe I'm off with that assumption though.

I wonder how a judging panel would react to a timbe and rochin (Okinawa shield and sword). I've seen pictures and a video, but I've never seen it in person. I think it's one of those things everyone's heard of, yet no one's really seen. How would a judge something they've never seen before? Has anyone seen it used at a tournament? What about a nunte bo?

Solid post!!

In my competition days yesteryear, whenever I was the Arbitrator of said tournament, I never saw an Eku or a Timbe/Rochin, and most of that was due to the specifics of said tournament as regarding what Kobudo was and wasn't allowed.

Me, being an practitioner of an Okinawan MA style, I would've completely enjoyed and appreciated to see a competitor wielding either of them.

I believe that those judges on said judging panels would still award appropriate points to said competitor who wielded one of them without never have seen one and/or practiced with one and/or having never judged either because, as we all know, there's wide parameters to judge accordingly.

For example, the very first time I judged a Musical Kata, I was awed at what I saw, however, I had to put that aside and judge accordingly to what that tournaments judging parameters laid out, and nothing else, for that division.




I saw Eku done twice. I recognized the kata from seeing my sensei at the time perform it.

My question of how do they judge a weapon they've never seen probably wasn't worded exactly as I meant it...

Assuming it's a tournament that only allows traditional kata, if the judges have never seen a timbe/rochin kata or a nunte bo kata before, how do they know it's really a traditional kata being performed and not something made up? Do they trust the competitor is being honest?

To the bold type above...

As an Arbitrator, I'd pose this very simple question to all of the assembled judges, just after I've read to them out loud the acceptable Kobudo weapons under the parameters of the Traditional Weapons Division...and if the Eku as well as the Timbre and Rochin is on the Traditional Weapons Division approved list, as determined by the Tournament Director.

"Are you familiar with all of these said Kobudo weapons that I've just announced?? If not, raise your hand!!"

Whomever raises their hand, are dismissed from any and all judging pool immediately, and thanked for their honest as well as their time.

If during the course of the tournament that I discover that a judge has misrepresented their familiarity of those previously mentioned acceptable Kobudo weapons, then that judge is forthwith dismissed immediately.

IF THAT'S THE DIRECTIONS OF THE TOURNAMENT DIRECTOR!!

However, I've been Arbitrator before at tournaments where there were NO approved Kobudo Weapons list available for the judging pool to read. Whenever that happened, I simply instructed the judging pool, if they are judging a Kobudo weapon that they're not familiar with, then keep this in mind...

Control of the weapon must be paramount and continuous at all times.

After that, judge said Kobudo weapon just like you would do with the one(s) that you're the most familiar. After all, no matter what type of Kobudo weapon it is, or might be, or appear to be, that said Kobudo weapon is the extension of ones body, and it must be in control at all times. That's how I'd judge either of them if I hadn't ever seen either of them before.

Don't judge the book by its cover. Same to Kobudo...don't judge the Kobudo weapon by its look, no matter how familiar it might or might not be.






That makes sense. Thank you.

Your "control of the weapon" parameter reminded me of a sai kata I saw done at a tournament. It was the first time I saw a sai kata being performed. The karateka was doing a routine flip of it (I don't know what to call it) where the pointed end is along the inside of the forearm, and it gets flicked out to where the pointed end is pointed straight out. The karateka lost his grip and it flew straight at the judge. He was standing about 4 feet in front of the judge at the time. Good thing the judge had karate instincts and moved his head It flew right by him. The look on the karateka's face was priceless. The judge smiled professionally, and politely handed him his sai back. Needless to say, he didn't score very high. He looked very good until that slip up though. He might've won had it not happened. I say that because a few others did the same kata afterwards, and his looked the best until the incident which was near the end.
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Alan Armstrong
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 22, 2017 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

While on the subject of contemporary weapons vs traditional MA types, where I live there are Jedi Knights using light sabers.

Real contemporary and fantasy weapons in martial art tournaments isn't necessary, the weapon need not make up for the lack of skill from the user.
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sensei8
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 22, 2017 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alan Armstrong wrote:
While on the subject of contemporary weapons vs traditional MA types, where I live there are Jedi Knights using light sabers.

Real contemporary and fantasy weapons in martial art tournaments isn't necessary, the weapon need not make up for the lack of skill from the user.

Lack of control serves no one with the real McCoy, especially if one can't even control the fantasy ones.



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