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singularity6
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Joined: 26 Jun 2017
Posts: 958
Location: Michigan
Styles: Jidokwan Taekwondo and Hapkido, Yoshokai Aikido, ZNIR Iaido, Kendo

PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 1:45 pm    Post subject: Guns in Martial Arts Reply with quote

My wife participated in a tournament last year. For the weapons portion, someone from another school (from lower Michigan) whipped out an orange plastic thing shaped like an AR15 for his "weapons form." The kid was butthurt when a bunch of instructors said it wasn't appropriate for traditional martial arts. Keep in mind that most of the schools participating came from relatively conservative, gun-loving communities (It's probably safe to say that most households in rural Michigan and Michigan's Upper Peninsula have small arsenals.)

What are your thoughts on guns in martial arts?
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DWx
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll preface this by saying that I come from a country with tight gun-control laws (the UK).

I guess this depends on what type of tournament it was. Guns wouldn't be traditional but neither would someone spinning a bo and doing a 540 kick. What did the form look like?
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Lupin1
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did it have a bayonet on it or something? I'm struggling to think what a kata with a rifle would look like. All I can think of is like military armed exhibition, which is not martial arts.

I don't think it's necessarily inappropriate. Remember the weapons we use now were original wielded to kill, not just to look pretty in a kata. I don't think using a gun to defend yourself is any more shocking or taboo than cutting into someone with a kama.

Depending on how the kata was approached, I honestly don't see a problem with it. I think the judges should have let him continue and then made the decision to disqualify him or not based on the martial arts qualities of his kata.

And I will say I may be a little more open to firearms than others on this forum. No one in my family ever owned a firearm when I was growing up and I didn't shoot a real one until I was in my 20s, but I'm now a gun owner myself and in a long term relationship with an NRA instructor who owns a small arsenal and carries daily. To me a firearm is a tool and I'm not shocked or afraid or disgusted by the sight of them. If a martial artist can apply that tool to martial arts and do it in a way that stays true to the origins of the art form, I'm all for it.

I'd also like to point out that an AR-15 is not an assault rifle. It's a normal rifle.
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singularity6
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Joined: 26 Jun 2017
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Location: Michigan
Styles: Jidokwan Taekwondo and Hapkido, Yoshokai Aikido, ZNIR Iaido, Kendo

PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lupin1 wrote:
Did it have a bayonet on it or something? I'm struggling to think what a kata with a rifle would look like. All I can think of is like military armed exhibition, which is not martial arts.

I don't think it's necessarily inappropriate. Remember the weapons we use now were original wielded to kill, not just to look pretty in a kata. I don't think using a gun to defend yourself is any more shocking or taboo than cutting into someone with a kama.

Depending on how the kata was approached, I honestly don't see a problem with it. I think the judges should have let him continue and then made the decision to disqualify him or not based on the martial arts qualities of his kata.

And I will say I may be a little more open to firearms than others on this forum. No one in my family ever owned a firearm when I was growing up and I didn't shoot a real one until I was in my 20s, but I'm now a gun owner myself and in a long term relationship with an NRA instructor who owns a small arsenal and carries daily. To me a firearm is a tool and I'm not shocked or afraid or disgusted by the sight of them. If a martial artist can apply that tool to martial arts and do it in a way that stays true to the origins of the art form, I'm all for it.

I'd also like to point out that an AR-15 is not an assault rifle. It's a normal rifle.


I do not recall anything regarding a bayonet. I saw him practicing earlier that day (over a year ago) and the form looked like a lot of shooting "spray and pray"style.
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Tempest
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Styles: Judo, HEMA

PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For an example of something I think is a bit more impressive...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyJ4tmTPbWU

This is just a form demo, but Dustin Reagan, who is a buddy of mine from down around OKC, also did really well in the Longsword sparring and the grappling event that is a part of this.

Part of the REASON that his form is so impressive is that he can really DO those techniques against an actively resistant opponent.
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Lupin1
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

singularity6 wrote:
I do not recall anything regarding a bayonet. I saw him practicing earlier that day (over a year ago) and the form looked like a lot of shooting "spray and pray"style.


Yeah, I wouldn't consider that martial arts. If it had been more of an "oh no, my rifle won't fire and the bad guys are coming at me! How else can I use it to stop them?" thing with butt strikes and jabs and stuff, I would've been fine with it.
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JR 137
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah. I have no idea how to respond to a kid trying to use an obviously fake AR15 for a weapons kata. I genuinely think it sinks to a new low. Far worse IMO than glowing weapons set to music and fog machines, and I despise that stuff.

If you allow it, what's next, someone breaks out a foam dart shooting crossbow? Fake flame thrower? Toy chainsaw? Crowbar?

And where was the kid's instructor in all of this? Did he/she teach the kid the AR15 kata? Did the instructor actually think this was a good idea? In all fairness, kids are kids. The instructor is to blame if he/she knew anything about it.

Just when you think you've seen the limits of stupidity, someone comes along and takes it to an unimagined level. The Michael Jordan of stupid.
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singularity6
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Styles: Jidokwan Taekwondo and Hapkido, Yoshokai Aikido, ZNIR Iaido, Kendo

PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JR 137 wrote:
Yeah. I have no idea how to respond to a kid trying to use an obviously fake AR15 for a weapons kata. I genuinely think it sinks to a new low. Far worse IMO than glowing weapons set to music and fog machines, and I despise that stuff.

If you allow it, what's next, someone breaks out a foam dart shooting crossbow? Fake flame thrower? Toy chainsaw? Crowbar?

And where was the kid's instructor in all of this? Did he/she teach the kid the AR15 kata? Did the instructor actually think this was a good idea? In all fairness, kids are kids. The instructor is to blame if he/she knew anything about it.

Just when you think you've seen the limits of stupidity, someone comes along and takes it to an unimagined level. The Michael Jordan of stupid.


We need some forms that involve Super-Soakers and Nerf Guns!
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Patrick
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Joined: 01 May 2001
Posts: 27029
Location: Kitty Hawk, North Carolina

PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey all,

As a reminder, we allow discussion of weapons as they relate to the martial arts. Generic political discussions, including those tied to gun control, are not something that we host. Please keep this in mind.

Thank you.

Patrick
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MatsuShinshii
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Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tradition weapons Kata and modern tournaments is an oxymoron. These things do not go hand and hand.

As DWx said, what is typically seen has no relation to actual use of the weapons involved, at least in the traditional sense. If your spinning around Nunchaku like Bruce Lee or twirling your Rokushaku like your a helicopter preparing to take off, this is not traditional not practical for actual self defense much less traditional Kata.

Maybe he was a soldier or Marine and was showing off his rifle CQC skills.

If it truly was a traditional tournament then a gun would have no place in Kobudo (Muto) kata. However in staying with the traditions of the original founders, anything can be used as a weapon in the hands of a skilled martial artist.

I was once at a tournament (Traditional) when I was younger that a participant was told that he could not demonstrate the Jiffa (Okinawan Hair Pins) which seemed very strange considering that Kusanku was often performed with Jiffa by the founders. What could be more traditional than that? The verdict was that it was not considered a weapon.

It really depends on the tournament, definition of traditional and who is making the decisions. Most modern practitioners would only categorize the big five as traditional (Rokushaku Bo, Tuifa, Sai, Nichogama and Nunchaku), leaving out the other traditional weapons. Some of which are much older than the five classic weapons and some would say more traditional.
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