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tatsujin
Orange Belt
Joined: 12 Oct 2021
Posts: 162
Styles: Ryusei-ha Ryukyu Kempo Karate-jutsu
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 Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2022 9:12 am Post subject: |
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| Wastelander wrote: |
Ryan is actually one of the people I reached out to about this. His explanation was, essentially, that it is a practice of reaching and stretching out your techniques as much as possible without ruining your form. He believes it is related to the "joint opening" practices of Chinese arts, but he also wasn't really familiar with those practices.
My other contact spent 21 years living in Japan, and goes to Okinawa for several months every year, training in old Shuri-Te, and he hadn't even heard the term, so I'm going to say it's not all that common of a practice. Sorry I couldn't be more help. |
Ah! You sir are a gentleman and a scholar! Thank you very much for the assistance.
The general description that Ryan provides is right in line with what the teachings are from, primarily, the Daoist based arts (martial and qigong). It actually goes a little further than that as it as a work towards opening all of the joints. And then there are more advanced practices that take things a bit further, but would not necessarily be pertinent to the subject at hand.
Interesting that one source has some basic information on it and another has literally no information. It again points out to me the oddity that there is such a lack of codified kiko practices in Okinawa, even though there is a heavy influence from Southern China...where practices such as these surely would have been taught. Would you happen to have any thoughts on this?
Thank you again for your help and assistance with this.
_________________
For me bujutsu is not a set of techniques, but a state of the body. Once the principles are integrated, the techniques surge spontaneously because the body is capable of adapting instantaneously. |
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Wastelander
KF Sensei
Joined: 18 Oct 2010
Posts: 2733
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Styles: Shorin-Ryu, Shuri-Ryu, Judo, KishimotoDi
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| Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2022 8:46 am Post subject: |
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| tatsujin wrote: |
| Wastelander wrote: |
Ryan is actually one of the people I reached out to about this. His explanation was, essentially, that it is a practice of reaching and stretching out your techniques as much as possible without ruining your form. He believes it is related to the "joint opening" practices of Chinese arts, but he also wasn't really familiar with those practices.
My other contact spent 21 years living in Japan, and goes to Okinawa for several months every year, training in old Shuri-Te, and he hadn't even heard the term, so I'm going to say it's not all that common of a practice. Sorry I couldn't be more help. |
Ah! You sir are a gentleman and a scholar! Thank you very much for the assistance.
The general description that Ryan provides is right in line with what the teachings are from, primarily, the Daoist based arts (martial and qigong). It actually goes a little further than that as it as a work towards opening all of the joints. And then there are more advanced practices that take things a bit further, but would not necessarily be pertinent to the subject at hand.
Interesting that one source has some basic information on it and another has literally no information. It again points out to me the oddity that there is such a lack of codified kiko practices in Okinawa, even though there is a heavy influence from Southern China...where practices such as these surely would have been taught. Would you happen to have any thoughts on this?
Thank you again for your help and assistance with this. |
I wouldn't claim to say this authoritatively, but from what I have observed, it seems that Okinawan Kiko practices are more often perpetuated on an individual basis, rather than during group instruction. Additionally, it seems more common in Naha-Te-based systems (likely due to the emphasis on body development) than in Shuri/Tomari-Te-based systems (although it does show up there, on occasion). My suspicion is that Kiko was largely considered to be okuden, and simply not taught to the vast majority of students, and after several generations of that, things tend to die out.
As to how that compares with Chinese arts, I'm reminded of the story of a member of the Kojo family going to mainland Japan for university, where he discovered that the school's jujutsu/Judo (I don't recall which) club taught a technique to white belts that was considered "secret" in Kojo-Ryu. The Okinawans developed their martial arts over a long period of time, as a blend of many things, but for a good portion of that time, anything (not just martial arts) of Chinese origin was considered to be superior, and perhaps even divinely inspired, so I could see the potential of them picking up something like qigong alongside the fighting aspects of Chinese martial arts (which the previously-mentioned Kojo family would likely have done, as they ran a dojo in the Ryukyu village in China), and deciding to keep that for only the most worthy students. After all, fighting is pretty much fighting, with varying preferences and approaches to doing the same sorts of things. Aside from a few special kata or applications, it's entirely possible that a lot of the Chinese material blended well enough with the Okinawan material that there was little need to make the distinction, but qigong may have been considered something entirely new and special.
_________________
Kishimoto-Di | 2014-Present | Sensei: Ulf Karlsson
Shorin-Ryu/Shinkoten Karate | 2010-Present: Yondan, Renshi | Sensei: Richard Poage (RIP), Jeff Allred (RIP)
Shuri-Ryu | 2006-2010: Sankyu | Sensei: Joey Johnston, Joe Walker (RIP)
Judo | 2007-2010: Gokyu | Sensei: Joe Walker (RIP), Ramon Rivera (RIP), Adrian Rivera
Illinois Practical Karate | International Neoclassical Karate Kobudo Society |
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tatsujin
Orange Belt
Joined: 12 Oct 2021
Posts: 162
Styles: Ryusei-ha Ryukyu Kempo Karate-jutsu
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| Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2022 9:29 am Post subject: |
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| Wastelander wrote: |
I wouldn't claim to say this authoritatively, but from what I have observed, it seems that Okinawan Kiko practices are more often perpetuated on an individual basis, rather than during group instruction. Additionally, it seems more common in Naha-Te-based systems (likely due to the emphasis on body development) than in Shuri/Tomari-Te-based systems (although it does show up there, on occasion). My suspicion is that Kiko was largely considered to be okuden, and simply not taught to the vast majority of students, and after several generations of that, things tend to die out. |
I appreciate the response and comments. Your hypothesis rings true to me. I would ask you to extrapolate that a little further if you don't mind...Let's assume for a moment that the above is correct. Do you think that this Kiko is or was, within any stylistic or regional art, taught as a complete art or do you think it was only "bits and pieces"....those elements that, for whatever reason, fit into what they were developing back in Okinawa (or was the limit of what they had been taught in China and absorbed)?
While I have had an interest in this regard for quite some time, I became much more interested in it due to my studies in Taoism. In this school and in the martial arts the emanated from it, there are complete systems of qigong that cover meditation work, breath work, energy work, etc. But, since most of these systems and schools come from the north of China, our Okinawan forefathers would have had virtually no exposure to them.
My thanks again for your time and thoughts on this.
_________________
For me bujutsu is not a set of techniques, but a state of the body. Once the principles are integrated, the techniques surge spontaneously because the body is capable of adapting instantaneously. |
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Wastelander
KF Sensei
Joined: 18 Oct 2010
Posts: 2733
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Styles: Shorin-Ryu, Shuri-Ryu, Judo, KishimotoDi
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| Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2022 7:54 am Post subject: |
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| tatsujin wrote: |
| Wastelander wrote: |
I wouldn't claim to say this authoritatively, but from what I have observed, it seems that Okinawan Kiko practices are more often perpetuated on an individual basis, rather than during group instruction. Additionally, it seems more common in Naha-Te-based systems (likely due to the emphasis on body development) than in Shuri/Tomari-Te-based systems (although it does show up there, on occasion). My suspicion is that Kiko was largely considered to be okuden, and simply not taught to the vast majority of students, and after several generations of that, things tend to die out. |
I appreciate the response and comments. Your hypothesis rings true to me. I would ask you to extrapolate that a little further if you don't mind...Let's assume for a moment that the above is correct. Do you think that this Kiko is or was, within any stylistic or regional art, taught as a complete art or do you think it was only "bits and pieces"....those elements that, for whatever reason, fit into what they were developing back in Okinawa (or was the limit of what they had been taught in China and absorbed)?
While I have had an interest in this regard for quite some time, I became much more interested in it due to my studies in Taoism. In this school and in the martial arts the emanated from it, there are complete systems of qigong that cover meditation work, breath work, energy work, etc. But, since most of these systems and schools come from the north of China, our Okinawan forefathers would have had virtually no exposure to them.
My thanks again for your time and thoughts on this. |
It's certainly possible that it was, at least at some point, a complete art. The Okinawans do value healthy living, after all, and I could certainly see the potential of those who went to China specifically seeking out such practices, and bringing them back, as well as the potential of Chinese emissaries or craftspeople, such as those who settled in Kumemura, teaching such things to people on Okinawa. Given the fact that there are still some people out there who teach Kiko, it stands to reason that (if my assumption was correct) someone in their martial, medicinal, or familial lineage would have known most if not all of a complete system. The fact that the Bubishi contains not just martial arts information, but medicinal and esoteric information related to health, certainly suggests that there is a likelihood of such a system being taught in conjunction with martial arts, as well.
_________________
Kishimoto-Di | 2014-Present | Sensei: Ulf Karlsson
Shorin-Ryu/Shinkoten Karate | 2010-Present: Yondan, Renshi | Sensei: Richard Poage (RIP), Jeff Allred (RIP)
Shuri-Ryu | 2006-2010: Sankyu | Sensei: Joey Johnston, Joe Walker (RIP)
Judo | 2007-2010: Gokyu | Sensei: Joe Walker (RIP), Ramon Rivera (RIP), Adrian Rivera
Illinois Practical Karate | International Neoclassical Karate Kobudo Society |
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on the post.
