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ronin.74
White Belt
White Belt

Joined: 11 Jun 2005
Posts: 19


PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 2:23 pm    Post subject: Haganah/Krav Maga What's the difference? Reply with quote

Looking for a little insight here. Hoping someone more knowledgeable can offer some assistance. Their is a school near where I live that offers Haganah. An Israeli self defense system. Their is another school a few miles away that offers Krav Maga also an Israeli self defense system. What is the difference between the two? How much training is needed to become a certified instructor in either one? (I saw the Haganah guys and overheard an instructor say he's only been doing it since February, while the other instructor forgot what the next technique was in the series, not a good sign) Would appreciate any info anyone has to offer. Thanks


"On the mountain with no tiger, the monkey will be king"
-Old Chinese proverb
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glockmeister
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Posts: 490
Location: Pa
Styles: Haganah, Krav Maga, JKD, Kickboxing,BJJ, Judo

PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thats not a good sign if he forgets the next technique. The problem is, like all MA, you are gonna find some people who are very good instructors and then some who are not so good..
I would say scroll down to the thread about "TELL ME WHAT YOU KNOW-KRAV MAGA" The question was asked and I answeredit as well as I could. As far as the man who said he hasnt dont it long, that doesnt automatically become a bad thing. My Krav Maga instructor just recieved his certification and he does a great job..Then again, he is a Krav instructor, Hapkidoinstructor and TKD and has been teachingfor years,,
Some people are better than others.
To get back to your question.. There are alot of similarities of the two, Basically Haganah is a progression. not totally different. Haganah is like Krav Maga on steroids.
Check out the thread I referred you to and I go into more detail, for now, i would say check out both schools and see what you think. Both are awesome.
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ronin.74
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Joined: 11 Jun 2005
Posts: 19


PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the info
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glockmeister
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Posts: 490
Location: Pa
Styles: Haganah, Krav Maga, JKD, Kickboxing,BJJ, Judo

PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 7:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A correction to my above post. When I said my Krav Instructor just recieved his certification I meant his Haganah certification..He has been doing Krav for a couple of years now.
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Kickbox
Yellow Belt
Yellow Belt

Joined: 02 Jan 2005
Posts: 65
Location: NC
Styles: Kickboxing

PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 10:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Glockmeister,
This could help. I attended the Karate College in VA in June of2005. I took classes with Mike Lee Kanerek the founder of Haganah. The guy is unreal. A super fighter and teacher. I see why his organization is so big.
I also took classes with Dr.Jerry Beasley. The guy is incrediblely fast. He teaches a method called trapboxing. Mr.Kanerek, Mr.Wallace, Mr.Pellegrini, Renzo Gracie and others came to his class to watch. Since he never mentions Bruce Lee or JKD in his class I asked him about it and he said he was paid to write about different subjects including JKD. His only connection to JKD was the kickboxing version which they just call "kickboxing'. He does have a new book on JKD for 2006.
Mr. Joe lewis was there and had lost 20 pounds .He was also was unbeleiveably fast to be 61 years old.I also met two Paul Vunak instructors at Karate College. Bruce palh and Dave Durch taught kali and trapping.
I met Hock Hockhheim and he was a terrefic teacher.
Great experience!!! Great weekend.
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glockmeister
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Posts: 490
Location: Pa
Styles: Haganah, Krav Maga, JKD, Kickboxing,BJJ, Judo

PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 7:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes I have heard great things about Mike Lee Kanerek. I havent had the pleasure to meet and train under him directly as my instructor has but from what he says, the guy is amazing.
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Kickbox
Yellow Belt
Yellow Belt

Joined: 02 Jan 2005
Posts: 65
Location: NC
Styles: Kickboxing

PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr.Kanerek learned haganah in Isreal and came to the US because his favorite TV show was Miami Vice. He lived in Miami,Fl. He earned a black belt in TKD ans had Joe Lewis, Dr.Beasley, Ted Wong and others as combat instructors to add to his TKD program. A few years ago he took all of his knowledge and combined it with the Haganah he learned as a soilder in Isreal. He learned from the best and developed his own unique style. And he is very good. He taught gun disarms at Karate College.
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Hansen
Yellow Belt
Yellow Belt

Joined: 24 Jul 2005
Posts: 31


PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 2:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't know much about Haganah. Know some about Krav Maga. So I'll try to spill what I've gathered thus far from my own probing. Hopefully others can add to this info.

From what I understand, Haganah was an organization, not a martial art. It was an non-state sanctioned militia that arose in the 1920s, and supposedly disbanded in and 1948. Its mission was to repel foreign authority from Jewish communities and societies. During its early existence it recruited teenagers and young adults from local towns for "defense" purposes. And while the organization may have enouraged learning "martial arts", its primary purpose was to secure arms to aid toward its political endeavors; therefore, the martial art revolved around firearms and military tactics, not empty hand fighting. It arose for a very different purpose than individual self-protection as we typically view martial arts. I don't know if Haganah practiced or involved themselves much (if any) in empty hand training. If its purpose was of a military or para-military nature, then it would not have great need for such empty hand skill development, just as today's military (other than the special forces or SEAL) has little need for such skills on the war front. In such situations you need a weapon and better be damn good with it. But until I see an actual practitioner in action, I won't comment beyond this.

As for Krav Maga, it appears to be a compilation of several already recognized martial arts. Doesn't mean it's a bad art. Some of its practitioners are quite skilled and the art is simple enough to execute. So I think that it is likely to work in real life. But I did have a few doubts about the usefulness of some of its defenses against armed opponents. Also, from what I've seen and what I've gathered of its history, Krav Maga is not truly an Israeli martial art. That part I think is just good marketing. Just because an Israeli guy combined a set of various martial arts into his own system doesn't make it Israeli in origin. If you even look at pictures of the founder of the system, there are quite a few pics with him dressed in a Japanese gi and a black belt. But still, from what I can tell it's not a bad art to learn overall.

Heck, if you really want to stick with the whole Israeli theme there's even an art called Hisardut. But that too seems to be primarily an Asian martial art fused with other styles, as well as incorporating law enforcement and military tactics. Here's a link: http://www.hisardut.com/hisardut/index.htm

But I think the better decision to make is to train with the better instructor because most likely all of these Israeli arts are probably a mixture of several martial arts, some western and some Asian.

Anyone have anything to add? Or subtract?
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glockmeister
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Posts: 490
Location: Pa
Styles: Haganah, Krav Maga, JKD, Kickboxing,BJJ, Judo

PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 7:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sure I can add.. Yes Haganah was an organization at one time..the word itself simply means defence.
Also you are right. Krav Maga was not technically founded in Israel, the man who invented it grew up in Europe and used to as a way of teaching the jews to defend themselves. When he later moved to palestine, he eventually because teaching it to the IDF after some modifications to the "style"
KM is NOT a mass of compiled styles all thrown together. It is actually an integrated system. People who Make such claims either never studied it, or havent studied it very long.
Mike Kanerek who invented haganah is also well trained in KM, from what I understand, his main problem was he thought the knife defences needed an overhaul. He would know. But then, thats the good thing about both is that they are constantly being enhanced and modified as more data as to what "works" comes out about different situations, etc.
Hisardut is more of a stand up style somewhat similar to MT. That, you would be correct to say is somewhat integrated in the overall Haganah corriculum.

To respond to your comment about what Haganah as an organization needed and didnt need. The overal haganah fighting system aslo covers tactical handgun, tactical knife as well as carbine. it is not totally an emptyhanded system. Also you must keep in mind that the IDF has to deal with more than just being on a battle field as we think of one, because in Israel, your local coffee shap can be one. some soldiers will find themselves doing police work as well as military operations.
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Hansen
Yellow Belt
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Joined: 24 Jul 2005
Posts: 31


PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 11:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the education, Glockmeister.

Didn't mean to imply that KM was just a mish-mash of martial arts, randomly thrown together. I just meant it didn't seem to be Israeli in origin and its techniques are taken from already well recognized martial arts. It probably is well integrated into a useful and functional system.

I am glad to know that my observations about KM's armed defense tactics was correct. You stated that Kanerek felt the knife defense needed overhauling. I would agree. I would never do some of the defense tactics that they advocate in a real knife encounter.
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