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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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 Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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| MatsuShinshii wrote: |
You are referring to what the Japanese call Hikite and the Okinawans call Fichidi. We would call it the pulling hand.
The so called chambered hand is used to pull the opponent or control the opponent. Most think this is only to balance the body when striking, however the hand/arm is not stagnant. It is used to pull or control the opponent so that you can effect a finishing strike.
Is this what you are referring to? |
This is what I reference it to. I've also been told the off-hand pulls back for the "equal and opposite reaction" aspect of the technique, which I heard more now that it perhaps isn't that applicable in that sense.
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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| Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 4:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Luther unleashed wrote: |
| Wastelander wrote: |
| Luther unleashed wrote: |
| Wastelander wrote: |
| I was originally taught the "push/pull" mechanics idea for hikite, and have come across many people teaching it since. While I understand how it can help emphasize the body rotation needed to generate power, I also don't find it to be necessary for that purpose. Boxers get plenty of torque on their punches without it, for example, and generally punch harder than most (though not all, obviously) karateka. I just don't see that hikite teaches or develops power generation any better than other methods. What it DOES do, though, is control the opponent far better than keeping your guard up. It also allows you to withdraw your hand if it is entangled with your opponent's arms, which can sometimes happen, so that you can strike again. Those are my two primary uses for it. |
I respect your opinion but disagree a great deal. I do agree it’s not always needed just as you pointed out people hitting hard without full body rotation. However I was also taught to perform a roundhouse with my heel pointing at the target for maximum power, because of the hip rotation. Obviously it’s not always needed but can be very effective, and this is how I see the reverse punch.
Where I really disagree is when you say it doesn’t generate power better then other methods, I mean I agree that it’s true, but I disagree with you throwing it out based on this. Perhapse the methods you use to generate power with your hips in your style aren’t any better then other methods as well but you certainly don’t disregard them as very useful!
As I said I learned and tech many techniques involving movement of the feel and whole body where using the pulling hand to control or even pull, won’t be as effective. At any rate, I believe this was a real intent in this technique that you have echoed it being overlooked. This was kind of my point in my post, so not shocking.
Hope Mr Poage is ok, I know he’s not, but I hope he will be! Take care. |
I didn't mean that the body rotation wasn't important--just that pulling the hand to the hip to accomplish it wasn't necessary. I'm not necessarily "throwing it out," but I don't really emphasize that usage of hikite when I teach. I mention it, but find the other uses to be more useful, so I emphasize those instead. When teaching students to generate power, I'm much more concerned with the legs, hips, core, and shoulders than the hands.
Thanks for the well wishes! |
I hear you. In terms of a fight is use mostly a higher hands like a boxer anyways but there are some attacks that I practice in which the traditional approach suits me. In most cases I would throw out traditional techniques that produce power for overall protection as in a box in guard.
I was just interested in seeing what the overall view was on this. As I said for most of the 90s I saw these techniques as a way to generate power and it wasn’t until I got into Tang Soo Do techniques that I really learned applications because it’s application heavy just as most Karate styles are. |
I see both sides of this. As a lower rank, I spent so much time using both arms in the motions, learning to generate power. As I got to higher ranks, I was able to generate the same power without using both hands at the same time. So, in essence, its a learning tool early on. But, I do think the use of the pulling hand in grabbing and pulling in an opponent can't be overlooked as an application, either.
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http://www.sunyis.com/
www.aikidoofnorthwestkansas.com |
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo
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| Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 5:05 pm Post subject: |
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| bushido_man96 wrote: |
| MatsuShinshii wrote: |
You are referring to what the Japanese call Hikite and the Okinawans call Fichidi. We would call it the pulling hand.
The so called chambered hand is used to pull the opponent or control the opponent. Most think this is only to balance the body when striking, however the hand/arm is not stagnant. It is used to pull or control the opponent so that you can effect a finishing strike.
Is this what you are referring to? |
This is what I reference it to. I've also been told the off-hand pulls back for the "equal and opposite reaction" aspect of the technique, which I heard more now that it perhaps isn't that applicable in that sense. |
I have heard this through the years as well. My personal thoughts are it is not needed as the rest of the body generates the power. Hip rotation is the major factor as well as rooting the feet. Pulling the "chambered" hand does nothing IMHO to assist in the generation of power. If you leave it up or down and execute the proper body mechanics no power is lost.
Again just my personal opinion and I understand it's not a popular one on this subject.
We utilize the Fichidi (Hikite) along with the Kosa as one fluid action to brush/deflect the attackers arm and seize and pull it back while striking with the other arm. It may not be popular but this is what I have been taught and it's what I teach.
Other arts I have dabbled in tell us the Kosa is merely there so you have some protection if you do not get your blocking arm up in time to block the strike. Everyone has their methods and rationale for what they do or for doing something a specific way. There is no wrong or right you just do what works best for you and what makes the most sense.
I have also heard that the chambered hand is in actuality an elbow to an attacker behind you.
I have heard many theories of what something represents. If you start talking about applications and what the meaning of a posture or specific move within the Kata represents with 10 instructors it's very likely you will get 10 different opinions. Who's to say who's right. If it works for you then it's right.
That's my 2 cents.
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The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16430
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:44 am Post subject: |
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"I don't care, put hands somewhere, anywhere; just put them up!!" our Dai-Soke would command quite insistently, and often.
Dai-Soke taught us the many different proper mechanics of hand placements, with a particular emphasis on Fichidi, put wasn't stuck on it as the end of all end all, just another method.
However, the placements of ones hand is of no concern because by themselves, the hands are mute. The entire orchestration of the body, from head to toe, must be in concert with one another as that one instrument of motion through harmony.
Dai-Soke was adamant that while hand placement MIGHT be an important ideology/methodology to some, and not for others, what mattered was the end resulting application of the hand. Remember, Shindokan is 85% hands!!
Oh, I could go on and on and bore the tar out of you all here if I was to beat the drum with the details of technical and mechanic of it all, but, I won't, and let me just say this one thing...
Put your dukes up!!
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DWx
Black Belt
Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 6455
Location: UK
Styles: Tae Kwon Do & Yang family Tai Chi
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| Posted: Sun Dec 24, 2017 9:54 am Post subject: |
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| Luther unleashed wrote: |
| As for power it was explained to me this way. Imagine you are in the middle of the reverse punch movement (one hand punching and the other pulling). As the punching hand reaches the end of its course, so does the pulling hand. As this happens they work together. Now as the punching hand makes contact there is resistance. In theory, because you have practiced your punches 1000’s of times, as the punching hand slows and strikes, the pulling hand works harder to “keep up” as it’s used to. If the resistance in the punching hand slows it down, your bodies muscle memory should push the punching hand harder to keep up with the pulling hand. This was explained to me as centrifugal force, although I don’t know of that completely accurate if you look at the definition of centrifugal force but either way I believe in this theory and I practice with this in mind. |
This is the prevailing theory taught in ITF TKD. Even in blocks or strikes both hands must travel equal distance, one to the target and the other to the hip. I look it more like a tool to remind beginners to rotate the body and also to keep retrieving their hands back rather than leaving them out after striking. Later on in our curriculum alternative hand placements are taught and the pulling back to the hip aspect less strict.
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"Everything has its beauty, but not everyone sees it." ~ Confucius |
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Luther unleashed
Brown Belt
Joined: 30 Jan 2014
Posts: 676
Location: Phoenix
Styles: A few!
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| Posted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 11:28 am Post subject: |
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Great feedback guys, I appreciate everybody’s input. Because I stated the techniques of done for power it’s important to express this point of view I think.
Something I learned along the way it’s something my instructor calls spontaneous reaction, and what he means is that in a situation like a fight where you are simply reacting your hands may go through the motions but they may not complete full chambers. Before I heard my teacher say this I used to refer to it as a maximum and a minimum within the technique. We always practice to the maximum but many situations it’s OK to not complete full chambers and things of that nature for the effectiveness and natural affect. It’s the type of thing I’d like to do a video on something but it is something I teach often.
I think that’s an important point because I certainly don’t believe that any time you use these techniques for power that they have to be complete full chambered actions. I believe they can be manipulated to thrive on the situation they are needed. Don’t get mad at me, but these technics can be like water my friends haha!
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on the post.
