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JR 137
KF Sempai
KF Sempai

Joined: 10 May 2015
Posts: 2380
Location: In the dojo
Styles: Seido Juku

PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 5:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

5 years is a long time for a kid to wait to promote. At 13, that's almost half of your life!
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126barnes
Yellow Belt
Yellow Belt

Joined: 29 Oct 2015
Posts: 46
Location: Canada
Styles: Kenpo Karate

PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 9:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great topic as I have a 12 yr old being tested for brown in the very near future. With another two years of training I'm guessin he'll be ready for some form of BB, which would be a JBB in our school.

Currently as there is really no need for age policy as we don't have any teenagers ready for BB. But its definitely a conversation I want to have with Sensei as I see no rush having my young teenager with a BB. Having a 3-4 year period of training (mental, physical, teaching aid) working towards a full BB from JBB, will either break him or make him stronger.

As a parent I don't want to see him break but I don't want an immature kid with a BB either.

As a student I don't want a dojo full guys/gals with belts we not ready for. Forget about the purpose of belt color, but I rather have one I could defend than one that could be taken from me.
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 14498
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

126barnes wrote:
Great topic as I have a 12 yr old being tested for brown in the very near future. With another two years of training I'm guessin he'll be ready for some form of BB, which would be a JBB in our school.

Currently as there is really no need for age policy as we don't have any teenagers ready for BB. But its definitely a conversation I want to have with Sensei as I see no rush having my young teenager with a BB. Having a 3-4 year period of training (mental, physical, teaching aid) working towards a full BB from JBB, will either break him or make him stronger.

As a parent I don't want to see him break but I don't want an immature kid with a BB either.

As a student I don't want a dojo full guys/gals with belts we not ready for. Forget about the purpose of belt color, but I rather have one I could defend than one that could be taken from me.

Solid post!!

To the bold type above...

I believe that any standards, rules, regulations, etc., need to be established in writing before said dojo doors are opened. That way, students are aware of established administrative causes before, and not at, or after any fact. Imho, your school is behind the 8-Ball, so to speak, for having any established standards, rules, regulations, etc., to address future JBB's.

If the governing body has standards and the like established, then any affiliated school can post them for all students to read, or at least, be able to access the governing bodies By-Laws via established protocol and means.



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126barnes
Yellow Belt
Yellow Belt

Joined: 29 Oct 2015
Posts: 46
Location: Canada
Styles: Kenpo Karate

PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2015 5:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="sensei8
Solid post!!

To the bold type above...

I believe that any standards, rules, regulations, etc., need to be established in writing before said dojo doors are opened. That way, students are aware of established administrative causes before, and not at, or after any fact. Imho, your school is behind the 8-Ball, so to speak, for having any established standards, rules, regulations, etc., to address future JBB's.

If the governing body has standards and the like established, then any affiliated school can post them for all students to read, or at least, be able to access the governing bodies By-Laws via established protocol and means.


:)[/quote]

I agree, if rules are not in place from the beginning there will be people that feel its their right to challenge them.

Maybe I misspoke earlier, as these rules could be in place, but I have not seen them in my approx. 5 years attending. Sensei did tell me that this younger crew that are breaking the path so to speak will go through a period of JBB. At this point I'm not sure what he has in mind for minimum duration and/or age limits.

Seems like I'll have to sit him down and have a talk.............. :wink:
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 14498
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2015 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's been my experience that...

Your governing body, I'm sure, have their By-Laws set already, and usually, under their umbrella, said school has to obey standard standards as determined by the governing body!!

If the school isn't under any governing bodies umbrella/brand/flag, then said school can do as they please.




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IcemanSK
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Posts: 1084
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Styles: Taekwondo Chung Do Kwan

PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 11:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In Kukki-Taekwondo, Dan rank is given at age 16. Until then, one is Poom, or junior BB. We have Many Poom in the US, and many instructors don't tell them that they are Poom. They tell them "you're 1st degree BB." It becomes very confusing for parents & students.

The time in grade requirements for Poom are the same as Dan rank. So, one can become a 1st Poom early (at say 7 or , then eligible to test for 2nd Poom in one year. One can stay Poom rank past 15 years old if they are 3rd Poom & intend on testing for 4th Poom before turning 18 years old. This is very rare. The number who have done this in the US is 404. (These folks are usually children of dojang owners. I know of 2 of them. They are brothers in their 30's & are excellent MAists & teachers). When one who has become 4th Poom at 17, becomes 4th Dan at 18 years old automatically. One who has lower Poom rank can become that Dan rank at 16 years old. This is the Kukkiwon way since it's inception in the early 1970s. A thoughtful master will explain to students & parents the difference between Poom & Dan rank. Many still give the Poom half red half black belt. Although many just give them a solid black belt. I give a Poom belt & have them wear a Poom v-neck dobok. They stand in line alongside Dan ranks (a 2nd Poom would out rank a 1st Dan), but Poom rank do not teach Dan rank. And they are watched closely when instructed to teach anything to young gup students.

I will say that 1st Dan or Poom (IL Dan/Poom, meaning 1st Dan/Poom in Korean) means very little in Kukki-TKD. It's treated as if the holder has graduated from elementary school. They have only begun their journey. Movies & dojang in the US make it seem as if it's the end all & be all. Money is often the reason for that. Koreans prize time spent training over rank. I've never been asked by a Korean, "what rank are you?", but rather, "how long have you trained?" Years on the floor matters over rank. Elders are revered over the young. Those young men I mentioned who were 4th Poom in their youth, treat me with the greatest respect, even though they outrank me.

In the Kwan era, before Kukkiwon was formed, younger people than 16 were given Dan rank on occasion. But it was rare, & these kids were tough. GM Hae Man PARK, VP of Chung Do Kwan was 13 when he received his 1st Dan. He later went on the be the head of the Presidential bodyguard for the So. Korean president. In his 80s, he's still a bad man behind that cherubic face.

I respect & value your thoughts on this Bob. I come from a different perspective.
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 14498
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2016 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IcemanSK wrote:
In Kukki-Taekwondo, Dan rank is given at age 16. Until then, one is Poom, or junior BB. We have Many Poom in the US, and many instructors don't tell them that they are Poom. They tell them "you're 1st degree BB." It becomes very confusing for parents & students.

The time in grade requirements for Poom are the same as Dan rank. So, one can become a 1st Poom early (at say 7 or , then eligible to test for 2nd Poom in one year. One can stay Poom rank past 15 years old if they are 3rd Poom & intend on testing for 4th Poom before turning 18 years old. This is very rare. The number who have done this in the US is 404. (These folks are usually children of dojang owners. I know of 2 of them. They are brothers in their 30's & are excellent MAists & teachers). When one who has become 4th Poom at 17, becomes 4th Dan at 18 years old automatically. One who has lower Poom rank can become that Dan rank at 16 years old. This is the Kukkiwon way since it's inception in the early 1970s. A thoughtful master will explain to students & parents the difference between Poom & Dan rank. Many still give the Poom half red half black belt. Although many just give them a solid black belt. I give a Poom belt & have them wear a Poom v-neck dobok. They stand in line alongside Dan ranks (a 2nd Poom would out rank a 1st Dan), but Poom rank do not teach Dan rank. And they are watched closely when instructed to teach anything to young gup students.

I will say that 1st Dan or Poom (IL Dan/Poom, meaning 1st Dan/Poom in Korean) means very little in Kukki-TKD. It's treated as if the holder has graduated from elementary school. They have only begun their journey. Movies & dojang in the US make it seem as if it's the end all & be all. Money is often the reason for that. Koreans prize time spent training over rank. I've never been asked by a Korean, "what rank are you?", but rather, "how long have you trained?" Years on the floor matters over rank. Elders are revered over the young. Those young men I mentioned who were 4th Poom in their youth, treat me with the greatest respect, even though they outrank me.

In the Kwan era, before Kukkiwon was formed, younger people than 16 were given Dan rank on occasion. But it was rare, & these kids were tough. GM Hae Man PARK, VP of Chung Do Kwan was 13 when he received his 1st Dan. He later went on the be the head of the Presidential bodyguard for the So. Korean president. In his 80s, he's still a bad man behind that cherubic face.

I respect & value your thoughts on this Bob. I come from a different perspective.

Solid post!!

And yes, our perspectives are different, thusly, so are many, many others, and in that, perspectives are reality to that person/group/etc.




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singularity6
Pre-Black Belt
Pre-Black Belt

Joined: 26 Jun 2017
Posts: 958
Location: Michigan
Styles: Jidokwan Taekwondo and Hapkido, Yoshokai Aikido, ZNIR Iaido, Kendo

PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 6:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ranking in martial arts is something I ponder frequently. It's certainly much easier to keep track of. People tend to associate white and yellow with lower ranks, while blue, red and black are higher. My friend sometimes teaches at his school, but since it's fairly large, with a lot of students who come in at various times, he frequently finds himself not knowing who's there, but the belt tells him roughly where each student's skill level is. All a good thing. But as Americans, I feel we get too hung up on benchmarks.

Ideally, I'd like to see a school where everyone wears the same belt until they've mastered the basics, at which point they are awarded a black belt. This would be ideal at my school, in my opinion. Testing is infrequent, as we are very small. If you can't make it to a testing, you wait until the next one (I've been 6th geup for a year now because life has gotten in the way of multiple testings - work, travel, injury.) It'd be nice to move on and learn the next form, and some more techniques! Regardless, I will do as I am told in the class, as that's the martial arts way.

Now when it comes to age and ranking, I definitely agree that younger students should not hold the same ranking as adults. Hell, even 18 seems like it might be too young for some!
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