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JR 137
Black Belt
Joined: 10 May 2015
Posts: 2442
Location: In the dojo
Styles: Seido Juku
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 Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 7:38 am Post subject: |
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| MatsuShinshii wrote: |
First yes we allow contact to the head.
Now I have to ask a possible dumb question; why is it that so many disqualify the use of hands to the head but they allow kicks?
I can generate, or used to be able to generate, a heck of a lot more power in my kicks than I ever could with my hands. The legs have the strongest muscles and are capable of generating tremendous power. That and like a golf club it generates more power at impact due to the speed at the foot due to the follow through. Why then is it ok to kick someone in the head but not punch to the head? |
If it's a dumb question, I'm just as dumb as you are  I've asked that one too.
Both karate schools I've been in came from Kyokushin, where hands/elbows aren't allowed to the head, but kicks are. The answers I was given, along with what Wado Heretic stated, was that "it should be easier to block a kick to the head because it takes longer to get there" and "it's too easy to knock someone out with a punch, but a kick is harder to land" meaning if punching to the head was allowed, competition fights would be a lot quicker and the higher skilled competitor wouldn't win nearly as often. I don't agree with those answers.
Reading a few things written by Oyama's students in the early days is probably the best reason why it's not in Kyokushin and their offshoots...
In the Oyama Dojo days (before he named it Kyokushin and started expanding), punching the head as allowed and was a regular occurrence. Students were cutting up their knuckles on partners' teeth. So they started wrapping their hands in towels and aiming for the chin, like an uppercut. Additionally, students were getting knocked unconscious constantly and missing training time and/or leaving because they just couldn't do it anymore. Oyama reportedly got tired of students not being able to train (but didn't get tired of them leaving), so he stopped punches to the head, but reportedly allowed kicks to the head because he felt students should be able to block those (keep in mind Kyokushin's main kicking target is the legs, not the head, especially back then). And he reported felt kicking the head took far more skill than brawling and throwing punches to the head.
Sources to the above were books and interviews of Shigeru Oyama (no relation to Mas Oyama), Tadashi Nakamura, and I think Hideyuki Ashihara; they were all more or less original students of Oyama, and are some of the most reknowned Kyokushin students and teachers before they left. |
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo
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| Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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| JR 137 wrote: |
| MatsuShinshii wrote: |
First yes we allow contact to the head.
Now I have to ask a possible dumb question; why is it that so many disqualify the use of hands to the head but they allow kicks?
I can generate, or used to be able to generate, a heck of a lot more power in my kicks than I ever could with my hands. The legs have the strongest muscles and are capable of generating tremendous power. That and like a golf club it generates more power at impact due to the speed at the foot due to the follow through. Why then is it ok to kick someone in the head but not punch to the head? |
If it's a dumb question, I'm just as dumb as you are I've asked that one too.
Both karate schools I've been in came from Kyokushin, where hands/elbows aren't allowed to the head, but kicks are. The answers I was given, along with what Wado Heretic stated, was that "it should be easier to block a kick to the head because it takes longer to get there" and "it's too easy to knock someone out with a punch, but a kick is harder to land" meaning if punching to the head was allowed, competition fights would be a lot quicker and the higher skilled competitor wouldn't win nearly as often. I don't agree with those answers.
Reading a few things written by Oyama's students in the early days is probably the best reason why it's not in Kyokushin and their offshoots...
In the Oyama Dojo days (before he named it Kyokushin and started expanding), punching the head as allowed and was a regular occurrence. Students were cutting up their knuckles on partners' teeth. So they started wrapping their hands in towels and aiming for the chin, like an uppercut. Additionally, students were getting knocked unconscious constantly and missing training time and/or leaving because they just couldn't do it anymore. Oyama reportedly got tired of students not being able to train (but didn't get tired of them leaving), so he stopped punches to the head, but reportedly allowed kicks to the head because he felt students should be able to block those (keep in mind Kyokushin's main kicking target is the legs, not the head, especially back then). And he reported felt kicking the head took far more skill than brawling and throwing punches to the head.
Sources to the above were books and interviews of Shigeru Oyama (no relation to Mas Oyama), Tadashi Nakamura, and I think Hideyuki Ashihara; they were all more or less original students of Oyama, and are some of the most reknowned Kyokushin students and teachers before they left. |
I guess that makes sense. I don't buy it but the reasoning at least has thought put into it. I will say that when I was a younger man and participated in kickboxing, the vast majority of guys that got knocked out were knocked out with kicks and not punches. I get the theory that a kick would be easier to block because you can see it coming but most experienced fighters time their kicks and because of that the opponent either doesn't see it coming or does but it's already too late to react. I hate to admit it but I am in that last classification as I was knocked out twice with a kick and saw it too late to move both times. I was actually never knocked out with a punch while kickboxing. Others may differ and disagree.
I did watched a couple of video's last night trying to understand this rule and it's funny you mentioned Kyokushin because most of the videos I was watching where Kyokushin tournaments. The funny thing is there were a lot of knock outs or knock downs using a flipping kick I am not familiar with. Sweet kick! I guess a hybrid of a front flip with an axe kick (I think that is what the TKD guys call it).
After seeing that I'd rather get slugged in the kisser than take one of those kicks. They look pretty devastating when they actually connect. Probably 60% of the fights the guy was knocked silly or just knocked completely out.
If the ban was focused around limiting knockouts, they missed their mark with this kick. I guess it just goes to show that if you remove something or put an obstacle up, a way will be found to accomplish the same goal with in the rules that have been set up.
Love the kick! However I doubt that it would be something to use in a real life altercation. If you miss there would be no ref. to stop the fight and being on the ground, i'd imagine it wouldn't go well from that point on. However it was really neat to watch and definitely effective when it connects.
_________________
The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll |
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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2468
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| Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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My personal opinion on head shots with any or all human weapons is unnecessary when training.
Hitting many different types of surfaces when training and conditioning, from soft to hard with human weapons is surely enough.
How young is it, when it is considerered plausible to start having people knock each other out?
Those that are in the knockout business, good for them, this isn't for everyone, me included. |
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo
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| Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Alan Armstrong wrote: |
My personal opinion on head shots with any or all human weapons is unnecessary when training.
Hitting many different types of surfaces when training and conditioning, from soft to hard with human weapons is surely enough.
How young is it, when it is considerered plausible to start having people knock each other out?
Those that are in the knockout business, good for them, this isn't for everyone, me included. |
Alan,
I don't recall anyone saying that they condone knocking students out.
I feel, and maybe it's just me and that's fine, that hitting and getting hit teaches us and prepares us. I find nothing wrong with contact if controlled.
Let me ask you, if a student goes 30 years and never has contact, doesn't know what it feels like and how they will react to actually getting socked, how do you think they will react when the time comes that get rocked for the first time? I know how they will react because I've seen it.
To each their own but I see nothing wrong with contact. Punching in the air and punching Makiwara is all well and good but it does not prepare you for the real thing. It doesn't teach you how your opponent will react or how to deal with different types of opponents with different skill sets. Point sparring or patty cakes as I like to call it does not prepare you for the real thing. In fact I think it's counterproductive because it teaches you to pull strikes. Just my 2 cents for what that's worth.
_________________
The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll |
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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2468
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| Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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| MatsuShinshii wrote: |
| Alan Armstrong wrote: |
My personal opinion on head shots with any or all human weapons is unnecessary when training.
Hitting many different types of surfaces when training and conditioning, from soft to hard with human weapons is surely enough.
How young is it, when it is considerered plausible to start having people knock each other out?
Those that are in the knockout business, good for them, this isn't for everyone, me included. |
Alan,
I don't recall anyone saying that they condone knocking students out.
I feel, and maybe it's just me and that's fine, that hitting and getting hit teaches us and prepares us. I find nothing wrong with contact if controlled.
Let me ask you, if a student goes 30 years and never has contact, doesn't know what it feels like and how they will react to actually getting socked, how do you think they will react when the time comes that get rocked for the first time? I know how they will react because I've seen it.
To each their own but I see nothing wrong with contact. Punching in the air and punching Makiwara is all well and good but it does not prepare you for the real thing. It doesn't teach you how your opponent will react or how to deal with different types of opponents with different skill sets. Point sparring or patty cakes as I like to call it does not prepare you for the real thing. In fact I think it's counterproductive because it teaches you to pull strikes. Just my 2 cents for what that's worth. |
It is fine to pull strikes if the opponent is also.
Still while sparring and pulling strikes accidents happen.
I've had some real fights in the dojo due to me pulling punches and my opponent cares not to... game on
I've been accidentally knocked out with bloody noses, cracked ribs and the rest as I have accidentally eye jabbed and groin kicked unintentionally.
(Full contact in the dojo can very easily be abused)
I've been doing martial arts long enough to know all the difference of none contact, light contact, full contact, %50 speed %50 power, vulnerable areas to hit, controlling the opponent and the rest... to killing a person, as I don't need to cut off heads to test how sharp my sword and techniques are.
Martial artists can very easily become desensitized to how damaging and capable they are; for me martial arts is an art, a killing art, a dangerous art and not a sport involving referees.
For a student to be a student for 30 years and never had contact (would be highly improbable) compared to a person that has had many 1000,s of head shots; I'll take my chances with the first choice.
Head shots or knocking someone out, neither are constructive and what is to be learned from something we already know? |
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JR 137
Black Belt
Joined: 10 May 2015
Posts: 2442
Location: In the dojo
Styles: Seido Juku
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| Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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| MatsuShinshii wrote: |
| JR 137 wrote: |
| MatsuShinshii wrote: |
First yes we allow contact to the head.
Now I have to ask a possible dumb question; why is it that so many disqualify the use of hands to the head but they allow kicks?
I can generate, or used to be able to generate, a heck of a lot more power in my kicks than I ever could with my hands. The legs have the strongest muscles and are capable of generating tremendous power. That and like a golf club it generates more power at impact due to the speed at the foot due to the follow through. Why then is it ok to kick someone in the head but not punch to the head? |
If it's a dumb question, I'm just as dumb as you are I've asked that one too.
Both karate schools I've been in came from Kyokushin, where hands/elbows aren't allowed to the head, but kicks are. The answers I was given, along with what Wado Heretic stated, was that "it should be easier to block a kick to the head because it takes longer to get there" and "it's too easy to knock someone out with a punch, but a kick is harder to land" meaning if punching to the head was allowed, competition fights would be a lot quicker and the higher skilled competitor wouldn't win nearly as often. I don't agree with those answers.
Reading a few things written by Oyama's students in the early days is probably the best reason why it's not in Kyokushin and their offshoots...
In the Oyama Dojo days (before he named it Kyokushin and started expanding), punching the head as allowed and was a regular occurrence. Students were cutting up their knuckles on partners' teeth. So they started wrapping their hands in towels and aiming for the chin, like an uppercut. Additionally, students were getting knocked unconscious constantly and missing training time and/or leaving because they just couldn't do it anymore. Oyama reportedly got tired of students not being able to train (but didn't get tired of them leaving), so he stopped punches to the head, but reportedly allowed kicks to the head because he felt students should be able to block those (keep in mind Kyokushin's main kicking target is the legs, not the head, especially back then). And he reported felt kicking the head took far more skill than brawling and throwing punches to the head.
Sources to the above were books and interviews of Shigeru Oyama (no relation to Mas Oyama), Tadashi Nakamura, and I think Hideyuki Ashihara; they were all more or less original students of Oyama, and are some of the most reknowned Kyokushin students and teachers before they left. |
I guess that makes sense. I don't buy it but the reasoning at least has thought put into it. I will say that when I was a younger man and participated in kickboxing, the vast majority of guys that got knocked out were knocked out with kicks and not punches. I get the theory that a kick would be easier to block because you can see it coming but most experienced fighters time their kicks and because of that the opponent either doesn't see it coming or does but it's already too late to react. I hate to admit it but I am in that last classification as I was knocked out twice with a kick and saw it too late to move both times. I was actually never knocked out with a punch while kickboxing. Others may differ and disagree.
I did watched a couple of video's last night trying to understand this rule and it's funny you mentioned Kyokushin because most of the videos I was watching where Kyokushin tournaments. The funny thing is there were a lot of knock outs or knock downs using a flipping kick I am not familiar with. Sweet kick! I guess a hybrid of a front flip with an axe kick (I think that is what the TKD guys call it).
After seeing that I'd rather get slugged in the kisser than take one of those kicks. They look pretty devastating when they actually connect. Probably 60% of the fights the guy was knocked silly or just knocked completely out.
If the ban was focused around limiting knockouts, they missed their mark with this kick. I guess it just goes to show that if you remove something or put an obstacle up, a way will be found to accomplish the same goal with in the rules that have been set up.
Love the kick! However I doubt that it would be something to use in a real life altercation. If you miss there would be no ref. to stop the fight and being on the ground, i'd imagine it wouldn't go well from that point on. However it was really neat to watch and definitely effective when it connects. |
All very good points.
I'm not a fan of that flip kick. I've seen it miss far more than land, but I've never seen in done in person. And I'm with you - I'd rather take a right hook to the head than that kick.
To the best of my knowledge, that kick came about way after Oyama banned head punches. I'd say mid 80s, it a Kyokushin historian could probably easily prove me wrong.
One other reason Oyama reportedly banned head punching - people breaking their hands and losing training time. Yes, that could be remedied by better technique, but heads move, so sometimes the first 2 knuckles don't land exactly where you thought they would.
If I ever get the chance opportunity to ask at the right time and place, I'll ask Nakamura why Oyama banned head punching. But I do have more important questions to ask him first |
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DWx
Black Belt
Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 6455
Location: UK
Styles: Tae Kwon Do & Yang family Tai Chi
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| Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 11:53 am Post subject: |
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| MatsuShinshii wrote: |
I guess that makes sense. I don't buy it but the reasoning at least has thought put into it. I will say that when I was a younger man and participated in kickboxing, the vast majority of guys that got knocked out were knocked out with kicks and not punches. I get the theory that a kick would be easier to block because you can see it coming but most experienced fighters time their kicks and because of that the opponent either doesn't see it coming or does but it's already too late to react. I hate to admit it but I am in that last classification as I was knocked out twice with a kick and saw it too late to move both times. I was actually never knocked out with a punch while kickboxing. Others may differ and disagree. |
For what its worth, in my experience in ITF TKD (which does allow head punches and kicks), KO's are much more frequent with kicks. And occur more with spinning kicks like spinning heel and tornado 360 kicks. You would think these would be easier to see coming but with some clever set up the movement can be disguised.
One of my favourite ones I got to see in person was this one: https://youtu.be/pINXpo2k0dg?t=1m5s
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"Everything has its beauty, but not everyone sees it." ~ Confucius |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16425
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 10:14 am Post subject: |
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When someone like Bill Wallace is concerned, who's roundhouse was once clocked at over 70mph, well, I don't know about you, but the odds of blocking something like that, are nearly impossible. Just ask all of his opponents!!
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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| Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:58 pm Post subject: |
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| MatsuShinshii wrote: |
First yes we allow contact to the head.
Now I have to ask a possible dumb question; why is it that so many disqualify the use of hands to the head but they allow kicks?
I can generate, or used to be able to generate, a heck of a lot more power in my kicks than I ever could with my hands. The legs have the strongest muscles and are capable of generating tremendous power. That and like a golf club it generates more power at impact due to the speed at the foot due to the follow through. Why then is it ok to kick someone in the head but not punch to the head? |
In the TKD that I have done, by not allowing hand strikes to the head, we avoid the match becoming a boxing match. While kicks can be much stronger, it takes considerably more skill to get good at scoring with head kicks, and they won't usually come in with the frequency that hand techniques to the head would.
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www.haysgym.com
http://www.sunyis.com/
www.aikidoofnorthwestkansas.com |
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo
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| Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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| bushido_man96 wrote: |
| MatsuShinshii wrote: |
First yes we allow contact to the head.
Now I have to ask a possible dumb question; why is it that so many disqualify the use of hands to the head but they allow kicks?
I can generate, or used to be able to generate, a heck of a lot more power in my kicks than I ever could with my hands. The legs have the strongest muscles and are capable of generating tremendous power. That and like a golf club it generates more power at impact due to the speed at the foot due to the follow through. Why then is it ok to kick someone in the head but not punch to the head? |
In the TKD that I have done, by not allowing hand strikes to the head, we avoid the match becoming a boxing match. While kicks can be much stronger, it takes considerably more skill to get good at scoring with head kicks, and they won't usually come in with the frequency that hand techniques to the head would. |
I get why some have banned it based on explanations but for me I still say I'd rather get clocked by a fist than by a kick. In all the time I kickboxed as a kid I never once got knocked out by a punch but got my bell rung by two kicks. I get what you're saying, but for me I just don't get it, but I haven't been in the tournament circuit since I was a young man so maybe things have changed.
I'm sure gear has changed over the years but the thing I also always found a bit funny is that the hands had pillows on them and the feet had very thin padding with no padding on the bottom. This was Kick Boxing of course.
This always made me laugh a little to myself because the hands are covered with a good deal of padding, obviously based on weight classes, so much so that you had to basically put everything behind the punch to actually effect much less knock someone out but the feet are all but unprotected. Based on my personal experience, eating a heel hurts 100 times worse than eating a fluffy pillow and it makes you wonder why you're looking up at everyone and why your head feels like it's in a vise with a spike piercing your temples and base of your skull.
I understand the reasons but based on my personal experience this rule is backwards if you're worried about knockouts.
_________________
The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll |
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on the post.
