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aurik
Orange Belt
Orange Belt

Joined: 08 Nov 2016
Posts: 197
Location: Denver, CO
Styles: Shuri-Ryu, Uechi-Ryu

PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2021 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

IMHO, kata is one of the defining characteristics of karate; I couldn't see a style call itself "karate" without kata. At our dojo, almost every class has 4 components; warmups, technique exercises, sanchin, and kata. That generally takes up 30-45 minutes of our 1.5 hour class, and these are the 4 core components of our style.

The other 45 mins-1 hour tends to rotate on a schedule our CI determines (but typically doesn't share). It could include yakusoku kumite, bunkai, strength/conditioning, throwing/takedown techniques, self-defense techniques (typically derived from kata), joint locks/chokes, or free sparring.

He typically rotates these along a 3 month cycle, which aligns with the testing cycles for junior kyu ranks. This keeps the classes fresh, because you don't always know what to expect for a day, but it also gives you plenty of opportunities to see the same techniques again.

Our school also has dedicated classes for Aikido and Kobudo, so another option would be to have dedicated Judo classes, where students who want to focus on Judo can learn.
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Himokiri Karate
Blue Belt
Blue Belt

Joined: 13 Aug 2009
Posts: 310


PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2021 6:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Heated debate of replacing kata with judo.,, Reply with quote

Miick 11 wrote:
Himokiri Karate wrote:
There was a bit of a talk in my community. The talk was, replacing kata with judo. The reason is, most folks have only so much time during the day to train in martial arts. If they train in judo, they are doing an MMA based style that also happens to be complimentary to their karate.

In a nutshell, the pro for kata is the fact that its safe and no one gets injured. The con is that it is boring and impractical for combat situations.

The pro for judo is that it is very effective and pleasing to look at. The con is, its scary and learning to break fall takes a long time to learn. The learning curve is too along specially with Karate being in the mix.

Long ago, Bruce Tegner wrote a book called "Jukado" which combined judo and karate. It never became a thing though but I like the idea.


Well, kata should not be boring ... and as far as it being 'impractical', that just means you are not learning proper application , in that

1. In modern kata the moves have been changed, so any bunkai based on 'wrong' moves is 'wrong bukai' .

2. Application in movement and practice ( eg tai sabaki ) is essential , while in kata movement is often, static, patterned , or 'focused' (meaning its a type of 'index' ... a 'central position' that changes in application depending on how you apply that technique .

I have seen people try to work out a striking bunkai from a move that is actually (originally ) a take down, or throw . Of course it won't work or be 'impractical' ... for them .

replacing kata with judo ? ;

1. well, that just makes the above even worse and removes the knowledge even more .

2. may as well, as modern karate has got so bad ( with things like the above ) ... may as well give up the whole lot and take up judo

- another thing to consider ; in traditional karate, with the throws and take downs you should be learning how to fall and roll anyway .


1. What do you mean? Karate knowledge is getting better and better these days. We have combat karate that gives us a platform to see the best karate technique.


Karate knowledge is radically improving and evolving. More and more people are realizing that karate offers unique techniques and entrees to throws and clinch fighting and their is new found interest in exploring karate techniques more so than ever before.

2. Modern Karate ROCKS!!!!


I have no idea where your sentiment is stemming from. Modern Karate right now is truly breath taking and awe inspiring. We are seeing mixture of Kyokushin with Okinawan Karate. We are seeing a resurgence of Tang Soo Do and various forms of Korean Karate like Tang Soo Do/Taekwondo hybrid systems that revolve around low stance, forward explosive steps as well as jumping around, snapping and bouncing!

Karate without judo is incomplete. Even founder of Kyokushin karate came to this realization and started training with Masahiko Kimura who is a judo legend. Learning to break fall is very important and in Kyokushin, its very important to know how to sweep and throw and judo of all the Japanese martial arts has done the best job in isolating and organizing classical jujitsu techniques to create a grappling flow based on efficiently.



I agree with you about break falling. Its very important and one of the most under appreciated aspect of martial arts regardless of what style. I train in Korean martial arts and in Hapkido, we really prioritize break falling as an essential skill as oppose to knowing 20 different throws.
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Wastelander
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 18 Oct 2010
Posts: 2552
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Styles: Shorin-Ryu, Shuri-Ryu, Judo, KishimotoDi

PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2021 7:59 am    Post subject: Re: Heated debate of replacing kata with judo.,, Reply with quote

Himokiri Karate wrote:

1. What do you mean? Karate knowledge is getting better and better these days. We have combat karate that gives us a platform to see the best karate technique.


Karate knowledge is radically improving and evolving. More and more people are realizing that karate offers unique techniques and entrees to throws and clinch fighting and their is new found interest in exploring karate techniques more so than ever before.

2. Modern Karate ROCKS!!!!


I have no idea where your sentiment is stemming from. Modern Karate right now is truly breath taking and awe inspiring. We are seeing mixture of Kyokushin with Okinawan Karate. We are seeing a resurgence of Tang Soo Do and various forms of Korean Karate like Tang Soo Do/Taekwondo hybrid systems that revolve around low stance, forward explosive steps as well as jumping around, snapping and bouncing!


I believe what you consider to be "modern karate" and what Mick and I see as "modern karate" are different things, and we are looking at them from different perspectives. You seem to be talking about karate in the context of competitive fighting, based around popular formats that currently exist, and we're talking about karate in the context of its historical intent as a self-defense and law enforcement system of fighting.

Most of the "modern karate" out there is what you see in WKF/Olympic competitions, and honestly it's just a shallow and inaccurate expression of what karate is supposed to be--all flash and no substance--not just the kata presentations, but the sparring, as well. I will say that Karate Combat (if that's what you're talking about with "combat karate?") is not really any better, except for the fact that competitors are allowed to actually hit each other. Going along with that, even styles like Kyokushin, Enshin, Ashihara, etc., really only have one thing they can say that makes them more effective than other styles, and that's the full contact aspect. They are all still just fractions of what karate should be. For the most part, these formats have simply taken maybe 5-10 techniques and made them into their whole fighting system, slap some kata onto the curriculum, and called it good.

All that said, there ARE people who are working to bring karate back to its roots as an effective fighting system, based on self-defense and law enforcement methods, and incorporating those methods into various types of sparring to develop skill in applying them. While this is getting more popular, and that's a good thing, there is no widespread competition circuit to promote it, so it is still, by far, much less prevalent than the "modern karate" I have described, above.
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Kishimoto-Di | 2014-Present | Sensei: Ulf Karlsson
Shorin-Ryu | 2010-Present: Nidan | Sensei: Richard Poage (RIP), Jeff Allred (RIP)
Shuri-Ryu | 2006-2010: Sankyu | Sensei: Joey Johnston, Joe Walker
Judo | 2007-2010: Gokyu | Sensei: Joe Walker, Adrian Rivera
Karate Obsession | Arizona Practical Karate
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tatsujin
Yellow Belt
Yellow Belt

Joined: 12 Oct 2021
Posts: 31

Styles: Ryusei-ha Ryukyu Kempo Karate-jutsu

PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2021 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

New guy late to the game again, but wanted to jump in here...

First off, you do know that Judo has kata too right? Are people going to throw out Ju-no-Kata because they don't want to be "soft"? Or are they going to throw out all of them just because they are kata?

To the OP, I would really need to ask you two very specific things to give your the best answer or opinion. That would be, why are you doing martial arts (whatever particular flavor it may be) in the first place? Sport? Self-perfection? Or as a life preserving art?

Next, I would ask your why it is that you do kata? Because someone showed them to you and told you that you had to do them? Or are you doing them because you understand the original purpose behind them.

Let me give you an example of two arts that I do now due to age and health issues. One is Baguazhang where you "walk in circles". For the most part, for quite some time, all you do is learn how to walk in a circle correctly, how to turn directions and walk the other way and do a "single palm change" when turning. And when I say "quite some time", I mean like years. The other is Yiquan. In this case your just stand (as in zhan zhuang or standing stake). That's it. Just stand. Eight different poses or postures. But you just stand.

But, there are reasons for doing both of the above. I won't get into them all here, but am happy to talk about it if anyone is interested. But, the point is that doing the above is done for very specific reasons. Highly technical reasons. Kata is much the same way. But, the caveat I have to throw in here is that I am talking about the "old" katas. Not the "school yard kata" of modern karate.

I guess one other thing I would throw in here is...when you are taught and learn the kata that you do, are you taught the bunkai? The oyo? The henka? Again, my opinion, with out those three things, you are just essentially doing a dance and might as well toss them out. Learning the kata and memorizing the moves in order and the embusen is just level 1 out of 10 that you can and should be doing (numbers made up to emphasize the point).

Anyway, would be interesting to see where this goes as the topic has some real potential for good discussion.
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