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Himokiri Karate
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Joined: 13 Aug 2009
Posts: 310


PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2021 6:17 pm    Post subject: Heated debate of replacing kata with judo.,, Reply with quote

There was a bit of a talk in my community. The talk was, replacing kata with judo. The reason is, most folks have only so much time during the day to train in martial arts. If they train in judo, they are doing an MMA based style that also happens to be complimentary to their karate.

In a nutshell, the pro for kata is the fact that its safe and no one gets injured. The con is that it is boring and impractical for combat situations.

The pro for judo is that it is very effective and pleasing to look at. The con is, its scary and learning to break fall takes a long time to learn. The learning curve is too along specially with Karate being in the mix.

Long ago, Bruce Tegner wrote a book called "Jukado" which combined judo and karate. It never became a thing though but I like the idea.
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Wastelander
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Joined: 18 Oct 2010
Posts: 2552
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Styles: Shorin-Ryu, Shuri-Ryu, Judo, KishimotoDi

PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2021 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So...replacing a method of solo training with an entire other martial art devoted to partner training? That's kind of like replacing the jack in your car with a winch--yeah, the winch is useful, and with enough creativity you could use it to accomplish what the jack does, but it wasn't intended for that and it's kind of just a lot of extra work.

Honestly, if your community is discussing replacing kata with Judo, entirely, I would say that they probably don't understand kata very well, probably do too much solo kata practice as it is, and don't intend for their students to train technique by themselves. I don't say that to be mean or offensive--not everyone cares about what the kata are for, or about people training outside of classes, so that may just not be their focus.

Now, if the intent is to replace time spent on solo kata practice in class with time spent on Judo, I can see a case for that. Students don't need to spend an hour performing their kata solo to get better at fighting--they need to be drilling the techniques of the kata with partners, and implementing them into sparring. They should still get some time training them under instruction so they can work on fine tuning body mechanics and structure, without the chaos of another person being involved, but otherwise kata should be something you practice when you don't have a partner available.

As for Jukado, I can't remember the details of Tegner's idea, but that's basically what Kudo/Daido Juku is.
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sensei8
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Joined: 23 Feb 2008
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Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2021 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What Noah speaks toward is solid across the board

Solo training is just that: Training. Without the solo training, there can't be any serious partner training of any degree.

Kata being impractical is a demonstration of the lack of ones MA maturity. Sure, Bruce said that Kata was akin to swimming on dry land, and that's not quite accurate because even swimming on dry land is far better than not swimming at all.

Training tools are only applicable if they are utilized appropriately in the way that it's meant and designed to be by anyone who takes them seriously.

Kata is so often misinterpreted, even by those who've a ton of experience and knowledge. Even entertaining the possibility of kicking Kata to the curb can be hardly construed as an apology. Kata is an important training tool.

Tools are particularly important, no matter the work. Tools are primarily used to put things together or to take them apart. However, just having the tools is useless if one doesn't know, and/or understand, how to properly use said tool(s) in their given and needed situation(s).

Imho.



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RW
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Joined: 07 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2021 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wastelander wrote:
So...replacing a method of solo training with an entire other martial art devoted to partner training? .


I came here to say this too.

Imagine a Muay Thai gym saying they'd replace heavy bag work with taekwondo.
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Himokiri Karate
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Joined: 13 Aug 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2021 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wastelander wrote:
So...replacing a method of solo training with an entire other martial art devoted to partner training? That's kind of like replacing the jack in your car with a winch--yeah, the winch is useful, and with enough creativity you could use it to accomplish what the jack does, but it wasn't intended for that and it's kind of just a lot of extra work.

Honestly, if your community is discussing replacing kata with Judo, entirely, I would say that they probably don't understand kata very well, probably do too much solo kata practice as it is, and don't intend for their students to train technique by themselves. I don't say that to be mean or offensive--not everyone cares about what the kata are for, or about people training outside of classes, so that may just not be their focus.

Now, if the intent is to replace time spent on solo kata practice in class with time spent on Judo, I can see a case for that. Students don't need to spend an hour performing their kata solo to get better at fighting--they need to be drilling the techniques of the kata with partners, and implementing them into sparring. They should still get some time training them under instruction so they can work on fine tuning body mechanics and structure, without the chaos of another person being involved, but otherwise kata should be something you practice when you don't have a partner available.

As for Jukado, I can't remember the details of Tegner's idea, but that's basically what Kudo/Daido Juku is.


Its a martial arts meet that I go to. I come from a more Taekwondo/Tang Soo Do hybrid. I call it Korean Karate and there are other stylist in the meet. Some are more in to hybrid styles like mixing kickboxing with kenpo.

Just to give you a context, I mentioned here that sometime ago I got in to sambo. Now my situation is somewhat unconventional. My main style is boxing and Korean Karate which is incorporated in to sambo since sambo is judo heavy.

This is my current path in my martial arts and this path placed with folks who are very nice people by all means but they do challenge the notion of Kata. Now I personally believe in putting the whole million reps in to get good at something regardless if its Kata or not, whatever gets you there is fine by me. But we also do have traditional Karatekas and the kickboxers tend to be a bit opinionated about the katas.

My personal belief is, katas done right is very important because...it prevents injuries because you are developing body mechanics needed to perform the moves correctly and also to enjoy longevity in the martial arts journey. On the other hand, I do understand that incorporating judo is extremely important and its not that they want to replace solo training but rather when the class or meet is in session, they want to stick to break falling and forward/backward rolls which is a fair point and there are judo training that is also solo to be fair.


Recapping my situation:

Now for those of you familiar with my situation, I wanted to teach karate originally, then few months ago, I was in a hostile situation that made me question as to what is the best method of training for outside so my purpose somewhat changed over time. Afterwards, I met a private teacher in Taekwondo ( since I had experience Tang Soo Do and boxing) and after some time, our session went from poomsae/kata/forms to replacing it extreme cardio because as he put it " cardio wins fights" and I of course am wanting to get in to fight shape. So with that in mind, I needed to orient my training towards combat and I also reconnected with my sambo coach as well since Canada is just beginning to ease up on the restrictions.

Regarding martial arts meet:


In my town, MMA is extremely expensive but also, its not really MMA in true form but rather in my town, MMA=Thai kickboxing and Brazilian jujitsu. Not to mention it is super expensive as well. So a martial arts meet is where martial artist of all styles come and exchange techniques and look, not every person is going to be agreeable and some folks can be difficult.


My current state:

I am somewhat conflicted with everything as of recent times. In a way I don't really have any particular belief or specific opinion aside from my Karate being revolved around physical attribute development, technique and mental stability to keep calm and to have a killer instinct and be put together under high stress situations like I found myself in. I BADLY want to make sure that my students get the best training and if they learn boxing,karate/grappling from me, that they also to know how to deal with all kinds of assailants who are untrained but highly aggressive to even malicious human beings who may know how to kick box or wrestle.

Sensei8/Bob once said something here that stuck with me forever. He said that if he is drowning, he doesn't care what the name of the life raft is. As far as I am concerned, if anything no matter how incremental gain it is, it is worth considering. This could be practicing kata, practicing stance training, meditation, chanting mantra or doing some fruit fasting. I just want results in a form of mind, body and technique.

In the end, everyone's opinion is welcomed and sometimes I agree, disagree or become conflicted with their feedback.

RW wrote:
Wastelander wrote:
So...replacing a method of solo training with an entire other martial art devoted to partner training? .


I came here to say this too.

Imagine a Muay Thai gym saying they'd replace heavy bag work with taekwondo.


There are some hybrid styles that mix Taekwondo and Muay Thai together. Sometimes the heavy bag work is replaced with takewondo target mitts and sometimes its not depending on the hybrid teacher and how much of their hybrid focus on one or the other style.

Weirdly enough, its becoming a popular thing. Now there is a shift from karate, kung fu, taekwondo, boxing and kickboxing to...striking. Some places do say they teach a mix of two striking styles.
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JazzKicker
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Joined: 07 Aug 2017
Posts: 153
Location: NJ
Styles: JKD, TSD, MMA

PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2021 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My first dojo, long, long ago, offered shito-ryu karate and judo. The owner was the real deal, from japan, and an Olympic judo coach.

My main pursuit then was karate, but i did try judo for a while. It was rough! Top level judokas tossed me around and I got hurt. My sensei's advice was to pick one or the other, that I wouldn't get good at either, otherwise.

For your situation, the best thing would be to learn 2 or 3 basic throws and how to do breakfalls well.
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bushido_man96
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Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2021 4:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JazzKicker wrote:
My main pursuit then was karate, but i did try judo for a while. It was rough! Top level judokas tossed me around and I got hurt. My sensei's advice was to pick one or the other, that I wouldn't get good at either, otherwise.


As a student of the Martial Arts for many years, and instructor myself, I really hate to see this kind of advise given out. A student can get good at multiple styles, especially ones that don't have a lot of crossover. If a student has the time to devote to a couple of disciplines, and is willing to do it, then they should do it.

Quote:
" cardio wins fights"


Well, I think this depends. What kind of fighting are we talking about? Are we talking about competition? Then yeah, being in peak physical condition, along with being really talented, is important for successful competition. If we are talking about self-defense, cardio is still important, but not nearly as much so for surviving a self-defense situation, as it's not likely to last as long as a competition bout is. When it comes to self-defense, I'd rather have lots of time in skill and drill.
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Miick 11
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Joined: 01 Jan 2021
Posts: 58


PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2021 6:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Heated debate of replacing kata with judo.,, Reply with quote

Himokiri Karate wrote:
There was a bit of a talk in my community. The talk was, replacing kata with judo. The reason is, most folks have only so much time during the day to train in martial arts. If they train in judo, they are doing an MMA based style that also happens to be complimentary to their karate.

In a nutshell, the pro for kata is the fact that its safe and no one gets injured. The con is that it is boring and impractical for combat situations.

The pro for judo is that it is very effective and pleasing to look at. The con is, its scary and learning to break fall takes a long time to learn. The learning curve is too along specially with Karate being in the mix.

Long ago, Bruce Tegner wrote a book called "Jukado" which combined judo and karate. It never became a thing though but I like the idea.


Well, kata should not be boring ... and as far as it being 'impractical', that just means you are not learning proper application , in that

1. In modern kata the moves have been changed, so any bunkai based on 'wrong' moves is 'wrong bukai' .

2. Application in movement and practice ( eg tai sabaki ) is essential , while in kata movement is often, static, patterned , or 'focused' (meaning its a type of 'index' ... a 'central position' that changes in application depending on how you apply that technique .

I have seen people try to work out a striking bunkai from a move that is actually (originally ) a take down, or throw . Of course it won't work or be 'impractical' ... for them .

replacing kata with judo ? ;

1. well, that just makes the above even worse and removes the knowledge even more .

2. may as well, as modern karate has got so bad ( with things like the above ) ... may as well give up the whole lot and take up judo

- another thing to consider ; in traditional karate, with the throws and take downs you should be learning how to fall and roll anyway .
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Miick 11
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Joined: 01 Jan 2021
Posts: 58


PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2021 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wastelander wrote:
So...replacing a method of solo training with an entire other martial art devoted to partner training? That's kind of like replacing the jack in your car with a winch--yeah, the winch is useful, and with enough creativity you could use it to accomplish what the jack does, but it wasn't intended for that and it's kind of just a lot of extra work.

Honestly, if your community is discussing replacing kata with Judo, entirely, I would say that they probably don't understand kata very well, probably do too much solo kata practice as it is, and don't intend for their students to train technique by themselves. I don't say that to be mean or offensive--not everyone cares about what the kata are for, or about people training outside of classes, so that may just not be their focus.

Now, if the intent is to replace time spent on solo kata practice in class with time spent on Judo, I can see a case for that. Students don't need to spend an hour performing their kata solo to get better at fighting--they need to be drilling the techniques of the kata with partners, and implementing them into sparring. They should still get some time training them under instruction so they can work on fine tuning body mechanics and structure, without the chaos of another person being involved, but otherwise kata should be something you practice when you don't have a partner available.

As for Jukado, I can't remember the details of Tegner's idea, but that's basically what Kudo/Daido Juku is.


Yes, it is a little hard to practice judo by yourself

( yeah, you can, but compare that to kata . )


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtziJTo_BWA




[url][/url]
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Himokiri Karate
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Joined: 13 Aug 2009
Posts: 310


PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2021 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JazzKicker wrote:
My first dojo, long, long ago, offered shito-ryu karate and judo. The owner was the real deal, from japan, and an Olympic judo coach.

My main pursuit then was karate, but i did try judo for a while. It was rough! Top level judokas tossed me around and I got hurt. My sensei's advice was to pick one or the other, that I wouldn't get good at either, otherwise.

For your situation, the best thing would be to learn 2 or 3 basic throws and how to do breakfalls well.



I agree, I think its best to take 2 judo throws and just focus on developing it in to an instant functional weapon and this requires 10 thousand hour effort and endless repetition.



bushido_man96 wrote:
JazzKicker wrote:
My main pursuit then was karate, but i did try judo for a while. It was rough! Top level judokas tossed me around and I got hurt. My sensei's advice was to pick one or the other, that I wouldn't get good at either, otherwise.


As a student of the Martial Arts for many years, and instructor myself, I really hate to see this kind of advise given out. A student can get good at multiple styles, especially ones that don't have a lot of crossover. If a student has the time to devote to a couple of disciplines, and is willing to do it, then they should do it.

Quote:
" cardio wins fights"


Well, I think this depends. What kind of fighting are we talking about? Are we talking about competition? Then yeah, being in peak physical condition, along with being really talented, is important for successful competition. If we are talking about self-defense, cardio is still important, but not nearly as much so for surviving a self-defense situation, as it's not likely to last as long as a competition bout is. When it comes to self-defense, I'd rather have lots of time in skill and drill.




I see your point, real fight is different because adrenalin gives you that boost to survive a fight since life and death encounter is different than a sport fighting contest.

But I also see the importance that cardio is like you mentioned, very important because it can allow you to hit and escape and if your would be attackers chase you and corner you, they might be gassed from running and you can get the jump on them with more explosive techniques.


I break down the totality of fighting in three aspects:

1. Physical: how fast, strong, explosive, quick, agile and coordinated you are along side endurance and stamina.

2. Skills: Whatever martial arts technique you have from karate to sambo to boxing techniques.

3. Killer instinct: Not hesitating and willing to fight back without hinderance of thoughts and what ifs. Pulling the trigger for lack of better words. This pertains to mind set.

It doesn't matter if its a karate punch or a boxing combo. In the end, the person can perform the move with confidence knowing that whatever fear and hesitation is not going to interfere with that persons willingness to act swiftly.
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