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Tepul
White Belt
White Belt

Joined: 05 Jan 2020
Posts: 9

Styles: Shotokan, Taido, Kamasutra

PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2020 10:21 pm    Post subject: Heavy bag training (Barefooted) Reply with quote

Oss!

Easy question: I am getting started with karate again and have been training Shotokan before. Now I switched to a dojo on Japan that practices Shotokan, but with protective gear (full contact).

So I was planning on training on the heavy bag as well. But kick it hurt my feet a lot. Feels like bruising and the next day it swells up a bit. I generally quit after it starts hurting.

Now I checked with google sensei, but most threads are about kick boxing or muay thai. So they kick with either the shin or with shoes. Karate on the other hand, kicks with the foot, so I was wondering what you all think about it.

Just stick with it?
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Wastelander
KF Sensei
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Joined: 18 Oct 2010
Posts: 2472
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Styles: Shorin-Ryu, Shuri-Ryu, Judo, KishimotoDi

PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, you could wear instep pads, I suppose, if you want to keep kicking with your instep. That's a sport karate tactic for getting more reach, though, not for power--if you want to kick hard, you should really be hitting with your shin. You may also be kicking a bag that has sandbags that have shifted to the outside, so you're hitting packed sand instead of padding. Eventually, your body will adjust, but if you're doing full contact, I don't see the extra reach of kicking with the instep as being that beneficial compared to the added power you can put in by hitting with the shin.
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sensei8
KF Sensei
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Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 14883
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seeing that you're training in Shotokan under the direction of a Sensei, I must imply a most unfavorable suggestion...

Please ask your Sensei, and follow his instructions. After all, you trusted him enough to choose him as your Sensei, so follow with your gut by continuing in trusting in that Sensei.

On the side, I do like Wastlander's advice of instep pads.




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bushido_man96
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Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 28121
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE

PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wastelander wrote:
Well, you could wear instep pads, I suppose, if you want to keep kicking with your instep. That's a sport karate tactic for getting more reach, though, not for power--if you want to kick hard, you should really be hitting with your shin. You may also be kicking a bag that has sandbags that have shifted to the outside, so you're hitting packed sand instead of padding. Eventually, your body will adjust, but if you're doing full contact, I don't see the extra reach of kicking with the instep as being that beneficial compared to the added power you can put in by hitting with the shin.


Good points here. What you might consider is kicking the bag for as long as you can stand it, and when it hurts too much to continue, put on the shin pads or some light kicking shoes and go at it some more. Like Wastelander said, your body will adjust, and eventually, things will be tough enough to last a long bout on the bag.
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Tepul
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Joined: 05 Jan 2020
Posts: 9

Styles: Shotokan, Taido, Kamasutra

PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear all,

Thank you for the advice. I did indeed ask my sensei and he adviced me to take it slowly. Also to kick with both instep and shin.

Time to get working now
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Spartacus Maximus
Black Belt
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Joined: 01 Jun 2014
Posts: 1780

Styles: Shorin ryu

PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The part of the foot used to strike in karate will vary depending on where the target is on the opponent’s body. Also take into consideration that some parts of the foot/leg require significant conditioning to be effectively used without causing very painful injuries to the kicker.

Traditional(not sport/competition) karate uses the point of the big toe for sharp kicks aimed at soft areas and the heel or instep(near the ankle) to strike harder areas or bones such as the jaw/neck or the leg bones below the knees.
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aurik
Yellow Belt
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Joined: 08 Nov 2016
Posts: 90
Location: Denver, CO
Styles: Shuri-Ryu, Uechi-Ryu

PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 9:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This sounds a lot like the conditioning we do in uechi-ryu. It takes time to condition your body, especially the striking surfaces and places you are likely to get hit -- I've been training uechi-ryu for about 15 months now. When I first started, I would get pretty easily bruised and the bruises would last for quite some time.

Now after I've been training for a year+, I'm able to accept much harder strikes on my forearms and shins without lasting consequences. A couple of nights a week (in addition to class nights), I'll do some conditioning while I watch TV or listen to a book -- just to the point of discomfort and maybe a little more.

Start slow and don't push yourself too hard. When you start feeling pain/discomfort stop -- if you give yourself bruises, you'll need to wait for those to heal before you can continue. As your body acclimates to the conditioning, you'll find you can strike the bag harder and more often without incurring injury.

And most importantly (as others have said), listen to your sensei. And good luck on your journey!
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aurik
Yellow Belt
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Joined: 08 Nov 2016
Posts: 90
Location: Denver, CO
Styles: Shuri-Ryu, Uechi-Ryu

PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 9:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spartacus Maximus wrote:
The part of the foot used to strike in karate will vary depending on where the target is on the opponent’s body. Also take into consideration that some parts of the foot/leg require significant conditioning to be effectively used without causing very painful injuries to the kicker.

Traditional(not sport/competition) karate uses the point of the big toe for sharp kicks aimed at soft areas and the heel or instep(near the ankle) to strike harder areas or bones such as the jaw/neck or the leg bones below the knees.


In Uechi-Ryu, we are taught to strike with the toe in both front kicks and roundhouse kicks. We are taught to strike at places like the gut (right at/above the belt), the floating ribs, the root of the calf muscle, and the front or inside of the thigh. Needless to say, this can be a very fast kick, hard to defend against, and if you haven't conditioned yourself, it'll hurt like the dickens.
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Spartacus Maximus
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Joined: 01 Jun 2014
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Styles: Shorin ryu

PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2020 3:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Indeed, for a few years the type of conditioning has been mostly associated with Uechi ryu. In the not so distant past, it was a staple of karate practised everywhere. Goju-ryu and Shorin-ryu included it, and Shotokan certainly had it some point in time because the instep and the big toe as impact points are both described in detail in reference materials of the style.

Now it depends on the instructor. Outside of Okinawa and Japan there are very few who may have experience or knowledge about these kicking techniques, and fewer still who teach them.

From experience, Uechi-ryu is the exception as conditioning all striking areas are still emphasized. It would not be too far fetched to expect such training is mostly, if not exclusively taught in Okinawan systems, in a dojo where the instructor is either Okinawan/Japanese, or trained by one. The vast majority of karate dojo and especially those specifically sport/competition oriented will have the same general approach seen everywhere.
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Tepul
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Joined: 05 Jan 2020
Posts: 9

Styles: Shotokan, Taido, Kamasutra

PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2020 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree. I am actually conditioning my shin, instep and ball of the foot (toes?)
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