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shortyafter
Orange Belt
Orange Belt

Joined: 17 Nov 2016
Posts: 169

Styles: Kyokushinkai, Shotokan

PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 5:26 am    Post subject: Heel planted when moving Reply with quote

Last night my instructor called to an attention an error in the way some of us move, me included. It has to do with the heel. When we move, we shouldn't rise up on our toes, but rather keep our heel planted through out the motion. And pivot into place at the last second, I believe. It feels a bit awkward to me still and I'm not sure if I'm overdoing it or doing something wrong. Or maybe I just need to get used to it.

So I don't know. Not much to say. Just going to throw this out here and see what you all have to say about it. (I am referring to kata/kihon, not necessarily kumite although I'm sure the principle is similar).

Thanks.
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OneKickWonder
Purple Belt
Purple Belt

Joined: 17 Feb 2018
Posts: 513

Styles: Tang soo do

PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 5:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Makes sense. In tai chi the feet are planted most of the time. And in tang soo do we have the 3 point rule. Except when in fighting stance, or when actually executing a technique, 3 points on each foot should be bearing equal load. These are the big toe joint, the little toe joint, and the centre of the heel.

Sparring is different. Remembering that sparring is not fighting, here we tend to stay more on the balls of our feet to facilitate faster foot work, but there's less power and stability to be had that way, and you'll waste lots of energy. Fine if you're an athletic youngster, but kind of important when you get older.

All of this said, there are lots of exceptions to the rule, so for now at least, I'd go with what your instructor says. Later on, you will start to find your own little adaptations that work better for you. But best learn the 'official' way before attempts to make your own version.
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 14370
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Every bit of landscape on the bottom of your foot is there for a reason; by design. Oftentimes, the entire bottom of your foot is utilized and in contact with the ground, except for the arch, standing for example. Other times, only portions of the bottom of your foot are in contact with the ground, stepping for example.

Pivots only happen if a desired portion of the foot bottom is moved, but moved nominally. Whether it be the heel up or heel down during the pivot. Yes, in Shindokan, we also pivot on our heel(s); situations aren't always the same, and pivots on ones ball aren't always beneficial whatsoever.

Your heel is like a brake; lift it to move smoothly, then plant it to stop.

Stay fully footed and planted firmly to the ground as much as possible; moving this way and that way on various parts of the bottom of your foot, but only when it's necessary to do so. Try not to lift your foot higher than it's really necessary to do so...unless you enjoy meditating horizontally and/or being completely ineffective.

Knowing how to and learning how to move are two different things, and, they both take time to understand.



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Wastelander
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 18 Oct 2010
Posts: 2419
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Styles: Shorin-Ryu, Shuri-Ryu, Judo, KishimotoDi

PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We slide our feet as we step, but we don't always necessarily use the heel--depends on what you're trying to do.
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would say it depends on the direction that you are moving and what the goal is of the movement.

If the goal is speed the heel as Sensei8 eluded to, gives better foundation.

Rotating on the heel does not allow for a quick technique because the weight is focused on it as apposed to the ball of the foot which can be quickly employed as a kick, lift to avoid a sweep of to move in another direction without taking the time to transfer your weight.

It really depends on the stance, weight distribution and follow up technique.
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pers
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 25 Dec 2004
Posts: 491
Location: England
Styles: shotokan

PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

your hill should never touch the floor but there must be a little space like a thin sheet of paper between the hill and the floor .

Toes touching the floor and moving and twisting and turning on the ball of the foot .
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SenNoSen
White Belt
White Belt

Joined: 09 Jun 2018
Posts: 7

Styles: JKA Shotokan Karate

PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 5:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In JKA Shotokan, we also pivot on the heel when we do Kihon & Kata even if in kumite we move on the ball of the foot.

The main reason is to avoid "Nige" in japaneese; i.e. if you move foword and give a punch and if your heal move in opposite direction (slip other direction than the block or body) then you lose power and momentum in the direction you are stiking.

In physics this can be modelized by vector of force. All body must go in same direction. If one part of the body going in a different direction then one vector of force cancel to some proportion the other one.
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OneKickWonder
Purple Belt
Purple Belt

Joined: 17 Feb 2018
Posts: 513

Styles: Tang soo do

PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 5:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pers wrote:
your hill should never touch the floor but there must be a little space like a thin sheet of paper between the hill and the floor .
.


Sounds like a good way to develop achilles tendinitis or plantar fasciitis.

The human body is not designed to exert constant force for prolonged periods of time through the tendons you're loading in the way you describe. It might be something you can get away with for a while, but chronic foot pain is almost inevitable in later life if forces are not distributed correctly.
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pers
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 25 Dec 2004
Posts: 491
Location: England
Styles: shotokan

PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OneKickWonder wrote:
pers wrote:
your hill should never touch the floor but there must be a little space like a thin sheet of paper between the hill and the floor .
.


Sounds like a good way to develop achilles tendinitis or plantar fasciitis.

The human body is not designed to exert constant force for prolonged periods of time through the tendons you're loading in the way you describe. It might be something you can get away with for a while, but chronic foot pain is almost inevitable in later life if forces are not distributed correctly.

Contrary to what you have said this would not put any pressure on the tendons as when your body weight is on the ball of your feet it would your muscles supporting you.
I trained that way for nearly 30 years and never had any issues.
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pers
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 25 Dec 2004
Posts: 491
Location: England
Styles: shotokan

PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SenNoSen wrote:
In JKA Shotokan, we also pivot on the heel when we do Kihon & Kata even if in kumite we move on the ball of the foot.

The main reason is to avoid "Nige" in japaneese; i.e. if you move foword and give a punch and if your heal move in opposite direction (slip other direction than the block or body) then you lose power and momentum in the direction you are stiking.

In physics this can be modelized by vector of force. All body must go in same direction. If one part of the body going in a different direction then one vector of force cancel to some proportion the other one.


Sorry but JKA shotokan never turn on their hills, always on the ball of the feet.
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