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tatsujin
Yellow Belt
Yellow Belt

Joined: 12 Oct 2021
Posts: 82

Styles: Ryusei-ha Ryukyu Kempo Karate-jutsu

PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2022 10:30 am    Post subject: Heian/Pinan/Gekisai? Reply with quote

A search did not really turn up what I was looking for...so here goes...

Heian or Pinan? And once answered, why...

For those that can answer the following and have answered the above, Your Heian/Pinan answer or Gekisai? And, of course, why?

Due to some things that an old student of mine has me doing, I am taking another look at the Heian/Pinan katas.

Thanks for your time, answers and thoughts/opinions.
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Zaine
Black Belt
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Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 1835
Location: Dallas, TX
Styles: Matsumura-Seito, Shobayashi-Ryu, Shudokan, Long Fist, American Street Karate, Southern Mantis, HEMA

PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2022 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am not sure what you are asking here.
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tatsujin
Yellow Belt
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Joined: 12 Oct 2021
Posts: 82

Styles: Ryusei-ha Ryukyu Kempo Karate-jutsu

PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2022 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zaine wrote:
I am not sure what you are asking here.


Sorry about that, I am asking about the Heian/Pinan katas and which people prefer.

Then, based on that answer, if they prefer either Heian/Pinan (choice from above) or the Gekisai kata (from Goju-ryu) and why.

My apologies for any confusion.
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ashworth
Brown Belt
Brown Belt

Joined: 13 Nov 2006
Posts: 607
Location: UK
Styles: Kankoko No Ryu, shotokan, IJR Karate, Iaido, Kobudo

PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2022 2:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Definitely the Heian kata for me... but that's most probably because I am a Shotokan karate-ka! I have a friend who runs a Wado-ryu club so I have gone through the Pinan kata, it's just different from what I am used to I guess, I also prefer the Gekisai kata from the Pinan... so for me its Gekisai, Heian, and the Pinan.
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Wastelander
KF Sensei
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Joined: 18 Oct 2010
Posts: 2574
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Styles: Shorin-Ryu, Shuri-Ryu, Judo, KishimotoDi

PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2022 8:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, given that I practice an Okinawan system, I learned the Pinan kata, not their Japanese counterparts. At this point, though, I only teach them to children, unless I'm asked to teach a seminar on them. I have also learned Gekisai, although they aren't part of the Shorin-Ryu curriculum I learned, but I don't teach it unless someone specifically wants me to. They all have good material in them, but I would say I would choose Pinan over Gekisai, as there is just more material, and that material largely ties directly to older kata.
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Zaine
Black Belt
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Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 1835
Location: Dallas, TX
Styles: Matsumura-Seito, Shobayashi-Ryu, Shudokan, Long Fist, American Street Karate, Southern Mantis, HEMA

PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2022 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wastelander wrote:
Well, given that I practice an Okinawan system, I learned the Pinan kata, not their Japanese counterparts. At this point, though, I only teach them to children, unless I'm asked to teach a seminar on them. I have also learned Gekisai, although they aren't part of the Shorin-Ryu curriculum I learned, but I don't teach it unless someone specifically wants me to. They all have good material in them, but I would say I would choose Pinan over Gekisai, as there is just more material, and that material largely ties directly to older kata.
Why don't you teach the Pinans to adults unless asked?
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tatsujin
Yellow Belt
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Joined: 12 Oct 2021
Posts: 82

Styles: Ryusei-ha Ryukyu Kempo Karate-jutsu

PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2022 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wastelander wrote:
Well, given that I practice an Okinawan system, I learned the Pinan kata, not their Japanese counterparts. At this point, though, I only teach them to children, unless I'm asked to teach a seminar on them. I have also learned Gekisai, although they aren't part of the Shorin-Ryu curriculum I learned, but I don't teach it unless someone specifically wants me to. They all have good material in them, but I would say I would choose Pinan over Gekisai, as there is just more material, and that material largely ties directly to older kata.


Would you mind sharing with me what you start your adults with (kata)? Actually, I would be interested in what you kata list (in order) would be for adults.

Thank you.
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tatsujin
Yellow Belt
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Joined: 12 Oct 2021
Posts: 82

Styles: Ryusei-ha Ryukyu Kempo Karate-jutsu

PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2022 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zaine wrote:
Why don't you teach the Pinans to adults unless asked?


I do not mean in any way to speak for him, but I can tell you that within the Okinawan karate community, there are those that believe that the Pinan/Heian kata were developed specifically for children and that is who they teach them to (same with the Gekisai). So, for adults, they will start (with regards to kata) with something like Naihanchi (ナイハンチ).

Also, there are numerous Goju-ryu dojo that start all students out with Sanchin as the first kata taught.

From a historical perspective, they are kids kata and were developed specifically by Itosu Anko.

Again, not trying to speak for Wastelander at all...just throwing out some related information that may be relative to the conversation.

Thanks.
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sensei8
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Joined: 23 Feb 2008
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Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2022 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pinan sets because I'm an Okinawan practitioner. However, I'm very well versed in the Heian sets, and between those two, my preference is Pinan over Heian because of the more uprightness of their stances. I'm also very well versed in the Gekisai sets as well; quite similar stances of Pinan.

I primarily teach the Pinan sets, but on occasion, I've also taught the Heian and Gekisai sets, whereas I train in them more than I teach them; depends on where I am and whomever asks.



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Wastelander
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Joined: 18 Oct 2010
Posts: 2574
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Styles: Shorin-Ryu, Shuri-Ryu, Judo, KishimotoDi

PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2022 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zaine wrote:
Wastelander wrote:
Well, given that I practice an Okinawan system, I learned the Pinan kata, not their Japanese counterparts. At this point, though, I only teach them to children, unless I'm asked to teach a seminar on them. I have also learned Gekisai, although they aren't part of the Shorin-Ryu curriculum I learned, but I don't teach it unless someone specifically wants me to. They all have good material in them, but I would say I would choose Pinan over Gekisai, as there is just more material, and that material largely ties directly to older kata.
Why don't you teach the Pinans to adults unless asked?


As tatsujin mentions, part of it is that they were designed primarily for children--which doesn't make them bad, or mean that they don't contain useful material. To me, they are simply unnecessary for adults, who can take the time to simply learn Passai, Kusanku, and Chinto, from which most of the Pinan material is derived. Yes, it takes longer to learn Kusanku than Pinan Yondan, but I would say that it doesn't really take that much longer to learn the three koryu kata than it takes to learn the 5 Pinan kata, and I would rather take some extra time to get people up to speed on them than spend all that time on the Pinan series, only to spend the same amount of time on the koryu kata, later, which largely contain the same or very similar material.

As for what I start my adult students with, they begin with Chibana Chosin's three kihongata, then go into Naihanchi.

tatsujin wrote:
Wastelander wrote:
Well, given that I practice an Okinawan system, I learned the Pinan kata, not their Japanese counterparts. At this point, though, I only teach them to children, unless I'm asked to teach a seminar on them. I have also learned Gekisai, although they aren't part of the Shorin-Ryu curriculum I learned, but I don't teach it unless someone specifically wants me to. They all have good material in them, but I would say I would choose Pinan over Gekisai, as there is just more material, and that material largely ties directly to older kata.


Would you mind sharing with me what you start your adults with (kata)? Actually, I would be interested in what you kata list (in order) would be for adults.

Thank you.


As mentioned, above, I start them with Chibana's kihongata, and then the three Naihanchi kata. After that, it's Tawada Passai, then Kusanku Dai, then Shuri Sanchin. At that point, they also get to choose either Chinto, Gojushiho, or Seiyunchin, and they are expected to seek a kata/form from another system, as well. If they want to become an instructor, they'll obviously have to learn all of the kata, including the Pinans.

I only have 5 belt colors for adults, and a completely separate color scheme for children. I also did away with the multiple levels of black belt because, in my experience, they lead to nothing but political nonsense, so I just have a black belt, and then an instructor certificate that can be sought and tested for by those who want to teach.
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Shorin-Ryu | 2010-Present: Nidan | Sensei: Richard Poage (RIP), Jeff Allred (RIP)
Shuri-Ryu | 2006-2010: Sankyu | Sensei: Joey Johnston, Joe Walker
Judo | 2007-2010: Gokyu | Sensei: Joe Walker, Adrian Rivera
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