Add KarateForums.com
Username:    Password:
Remember Me?    
   I Lost My Password!
Post new topic   Reply to topic    KarateForums.com Forum Index -> Karate
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 See a User Guidelines violation? Press on the post.
Author Message

LeighSimmsMA
Yellow Belt
Yellow Belt

Joined: 10 Apr 2015
Posts: 37
Location: United Kingdom

PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:35 am    Post subject: Hikite- Just a hand on the hip? Reply with quote

Hikite - Just a hand on the hip?

Hikite is the Japanese term for “pulling hand”. Hiki meaning pull and te meaning hand. Due to the way in which Karate has evolved, the meaning and use of hikite has changed over time and the practical application to hikite has, all things considered, fallen by the wayside.
 
Nowadays it is common to see hikite being used to assist with “power generation”. Although no one has yet to fully explain to me how moving part of your body in the opposite direction of the target can accomplish an increase in power. 


Lets take the basic reverse punch application as seen here - https://static.wixstatic.com/media/6cc70b_b079cf0aba404b4293fde2404261e8f0~mv2.gif as an example. From a practical perspective, two things start to tingle my spidey-sense. 

The first is that the hikite is placed on the hip for no apparent reason. Common sense would dictate that surely my it would be better to have my left hand protecting my head as the enemy would more likely aim for my head than my hip. Also, I can probably take an unorthodox hip strike a couple of times, where as, one shot to my temple and I can be on the ground quicker than you can say Osu. 

The second is that the punch is aimed at the enemy’s chest/solar plexus. Now there is nothing wrong with the chest as a target area. But what I began to realize was that the majority of straight punches found in Kata (at least the ones I practice) were aimed at the mid-level. Again, looking at kata from a practical perspective, it would stand to reason that the techniques in kata would focus on striking the enemy in the head and neck, where we can cause unconsciousness so that the enemy is unable to continue to fight no matter what pain threshold they may have. 

With those two things in mind, I was reading Gichin Funakoshi’s 1922 book Karate-Jutsu (or To-Te Jutsu depending on the translation). In the section which describes hand techniques, Funakoshi writes that : - “Hikite is to use the opponents incoming punch and pull on it beyond its reach and to twist it at the same time, to throw the opponent off his balance. 

You can see from the image here - https://static.wixstatic.com/media/6cc70b_1a0494017cc045c3b452cb0607a692ce~mv2_d_2048_1365_s_2.jpg/v1/fill/w_293,h_195,al_c,q_80,usm_0.66_1.00_0.01/6cc70b_1a0494017cc045c3b452cb0607a692ce~mv2_d_2048_1365_s_2.webp you can see that I used the concepts detailed by Funakoshi, pulling the opponents incoming punch beyond its reach, which is why my partner is leaving forward and it gives an explanation as to why I put my hand on my hip. Also by twisting my fist so that the palm is facing upwards, my partners arm is twisted further thus he needs to step and lean forward to compensate. With my partner leaning forward is head drops to my mid-level. Now what looks like a mid-level punch is actually a punch to my partners head! 
​​
 
By taking the advise of Gichin Funakoshi, you can begin to practice the karate techniques as they were originally designed to be used and all parts of the techniques are used. Of course, Funakoshi is not the sole resource when it comes to the meaning and applications of hikite and I would advise you all to go out and research what other instructors have to say on this matter too. There can always be more than one right answer.


For a video showing a basic application drill I practice, you can check out the video below. The drill shows also shows a we can use hiki-ashi, (ie the pulling foot) to pull the enemy’s leg beyond its range of motion in order to off balance the enemy! 
​​
https://youtu.be/Tt8W4nF9b6o
 [img][/img]
_________________
www.leighsimms.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website

MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm glad you brought this up. This is an understanding of the applications of the Kata (Bunkai).

Yes it is a pulling mechanism thus the name and it can be utilized to effect a throw and it can also be utilized to control the opponent or pull him into you as you strike, thus taking away his counter by taking him off balance. However these are just a few techniques that are utilized by the pulling hand. If you think of things in reverse as in one of the practical Bunkai applications, the punching hand is the pulling hand and the pulling hand is an elbow strike to the liver or xiphoid or floating rib, etc. This is just one more example. However there are many more applications once you start to analyze the Kata and understand not only the founders applications and practical applications but after you delve further into researching the original arts that influenced the art (namely the Quan Fa that influenced Toudi or To-Te if you prefer) you will find even more applications that for what ever reason the founder chose to leave out or was just not not passed down.

This is the beginning stages. Once you start to see what they represent you start to see other applications for the same movement(s) and the puzzle comes together. Once they are proven effective you will add another tool to your tool box.
_________________
The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message

catlike
Yellow Belt
Yellow Belt

Joined: 07 Jul 2016
Posts: 41


PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Where I'm realising the usefulness of the pulling hand at the moment is generating that extra rotation of the shoulders and letting the striking hand have a bit more depth, weight and acceleration.

It's explained a lot better in 'the red book*' than I can here, but I like to think of it as one end of a pivot. And you don't want to be at the other end.

*(https://www.amazon.co.uk/Introduction-Karate-Shingo-Ohgami/dp/9197023116/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1504193500&sr=1-1&keywords=ohgami)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message

MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

catlike wrote:
Where I'm realising the usefulness of the pulling hand at the moment is generating that extra rotation of the shoulders and letting the striking hand have a bit more depth, weight and acceleration.

It's explained a lot better in 'the red book*' than I can here, but I like to think of it as one end of a pivot. And you don't want to be at the other end.

*(https://www.amazon.co.uk/Introduction-Karate-Shingo-Ohgami/dp/9197023116/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1504193500&sr=1-1&keywords=ohgami)


Don't forget the hips for generation of power.
_________________
The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message

JR 137
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 10 May 2015
Posts: 2442
Location: In the dojo
Styles: Seido Juku

PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hikite is an example of the beauty of the art of karate - hikite can be whatever you need it to be when you need it to be something. It could be a grab and pull of any part of the attacker; it could be holding said part while you strike or joint lock; it could be twisting your own body as you strike with the other hand/arm in a push-pull sense; or it could simply be cocking your hand back so you have more power in your next strike with it.

If you're not a thinker, all it is is a good way to drop your guard so your opponent can get a free shot.

Any good example of art is supposed to have many interpretations. There's no right nor wrong, but there are better and worse interpretations of the artwork. Karate is an art, and as such, falls under this premise too.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message

MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well said JR 137. Solid points.
_________________
The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message

sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16386
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's the shear beauty of applications for THAT MAist!!

Applications are not written in stone, nor are they meant to be. But it's so easy to accept that they actually are, and in that, they won't walk away from what they're taught for the act of convenience. It's easier to blindly follow than the status quo of what's being taught by whomever or whatever, than to seek their own truths in any application.



_________________
**Proof is on the floor!!!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sensei8 wrote:
That's the shear beauty of applications for THAT MAist!!

Applications are not written in stone, nor are they meant to be. But it's so easy to accept that they actually are, and in that, they won't walk away from what they're taught for the act of convenience. It's easier to blindly follow than the status quo of what's being taught by whomever or whatever, than to seek their own truths in any application.




I agree with your points. However I will say that the original appliactions, that which the Kata was created by are actually written in stone from the stand point that these are the basis of the art and the way it was transmitted down to students. Where it is not written in stone is that the student, after first learning the original or founder's applications is then able to explore and find other applications. There are also, and I may not truly understand the term as it was never used in my training, practical applications.

The learning process that I speak of is first understanding the foundation (original or founder's applications), then the student is able to explore other possibilities along with learning very basic or practical applications. As with all applications they must apply and proof them as to their effectiveness. This is what most refer to as the student learning on their own. Creative thought is a major factor as well as partner drills with resistance. There are limitless possibilities and the student is able to add to their box of tricks as they learn. However they all must meet two criteria which are - is it effective (can it be implemented without too many moves) and can it or does it have the potential to end the fight.

To be honest all learn from this experience as not everyone thinks the same. Students may see possibilities that the instructor does not see and if effective can be added to the list of viable applications. The sky is the limit but one must first, IMHO and mine alone, learn the foundational applications from which the Kata was created to have an understanding of not only the meaning of the movements within the Kata but also a deeper understanding of their art.

I will also point out that not every art has the same applications for the same Kata posture (stance/movement). Not every founder found the same application effective for a myriad of reasons (which is for a different post). This does not mean that one or the other is right or wrong just that they are different. Again the proof of an application is how effective it is and will it end the fight.

One must remember when talking about applications of the Kata that all techniques, applications and series of applications had one goal, to end the fight. As you study the applications students should keep this in mind. If it does not have the potential to end the fight with that one application then it is most likely not an original application. That does not mean it is not worth learning and exploring but the original intent of the Kata's applications was to end the fight.
_________________
The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message

sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16386
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As in anything, this comes to my mind...

Shu Ha Ri

Bunkai, etc., doesn't have to be practiced as though it's written in stone. If so, then discovery is limited. What's beyond what's written in stone?? There must be something there that surpasses what's written in stone.



_________________
**Proof is on the floor!!!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail

MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sensei8 wrote:
As in anything, this comes to my mind...

Shu Ha Ri

Bunkai, etc., doesn't have to be practiced as though it's written in stone. If so, then discovery is limited. What's beyond what's written in stone?? There must be something there that surpasses what's written in stone.




Yes sir there must be self discovery. That is exactly what I was saying. The students first learn the true applications and are left to their own devises to find ways to make them work and to discover alternative applications.

And example would be learning the application from a Kata and then discovering that it not only works to defend against a certian attack but also works to defend against other attacks. Another example would be realizing that although we are taught that a particular posture represents this, it also represents this and this and that.

This is not given. This is learned through trial and applying. Proofing the applications in real situations with a resisting non-compliant opponent. Yes we give nudges and will help them down their path but the discovery is theirs and theirs alone. Once discovered they share with others and others will benefit from this as well. This is typical throughout training. The basics or foundation is given and then expanded through training and self discovery. This is mainly through partner drills and free form drills where the proverbial light bulb can come on. Most of what a student learns about themselves is through actual experience. This is the key to growth in our art. Something given is worth less that something earned. Learning by doing and experiencing, in my mind, trumps anything that one can teach to another. However the foundation must first be set in order to guide them on to the path first.

I think we are saying the same thing. You come from an old school background so I am sure our training methods are similar we are just saying it in different ways.
_________________
The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    KarateForums.com Forum Index -> Karate All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


< Advertising - Contact - Disclosure Policy - DMCA - Staff - User Guidelines >