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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo
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 Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 5:10 pm Post subject: Hikite or Fichidi |
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Over the years I have heard many reasons why it is used and almost as many why it shouldn't be used. Most none traditional martial artists do not know why or what it is but rather execute it because this is what they have been taught. Those outside of traditional arts do not understand why you would leave such an opening.
What have you been told by your teach in terms of why we use Hikite (Fichidi)?
Have you been taught why it is used and what it's function is?
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The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16430
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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Trapping and controlling; a vital staple within Shindokan's brand of Tuite, and then some.
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P.A.L
Black Belt
Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 1263
Location: Texas
Styles: Shorin-ryu
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| Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 7:39 am Post subject: Re: Hikite or Fichidi |
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| MatsuShinshii wrote: |
Over the years I have heard many reasons why it is used and almost as many why it shouldn't be used. Most none traditional martial artists do not know why or what it is but rather execute it because this is what they have been taught. Those outside of traditional arts do not understand why you would leave such an opening.
What have you been told by your teach in terms of why we use Hikite (Fichidi)?
Have you been taught why it is used and what it's function is? |
first of all , I really like to know the Matsumora Seito take on hikite, I practice with them time to time. So i hope you get into some details for us.
We spend lots of time on hikite.I' been taught that it should never come back empty. We don't use it for counterbalancing a punch. during the last year my sensei been playing with the idea that punch and pull doesn't need to be 50/50. sometimes we punch a little bit in advance and sometimes We pull first before punching.
sometimes We do a whole set of blocks/receiving with hikite in mind as our focus point.
I feel like hikite has a deeper meaning in my Goju ryu compare to my shorin-ryu . in my goju-ryu I keep the elbow below the wrist like I am pulling in a Judo match. in my shorin-ryu I keep the wrist below the elbow or at the same level.
in both Shorin-ryu and Goju-ryu I use the hikite hand for OSAE (pushing forward or holding down while in contact) . also hikite hand is my primary bocking/Receiving hand before my front hand. I do two hand blocks even in my Shorin-ryu Shorinkan katas, I just don't show it like Goju-ryu. |
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Wastelander
KF Sensei
Joined: 18 Oct 2010
Posts: 2734
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Styles: Shorin-Ryu, Shuri-Ryu, Judo, KishimotoDi
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| Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 8:27 am Post subject: |
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Originally, I was taught the typical "it teaches you to turn your body for more power" and "it acts like a teeter-totter as you punch" and "you punch faster from there" stuff. That did come with the occasional "oh, and you can use it to elbow someone behind you."
When I moved and started doing my own research, and then got involved in Shorin-Ryu, I learned that it worked a lot better when you used it to grab and control some part of the opponent. It can pull the opponent into strikes, and make it harder for them to deflect your strikes, as well as off-balancing them, and controlling their limbs in order to apply joint locks or takedowns. That said, I have also seen some cases where hikite/fichidi positions are simply telling you that the technique in use does not require that hand, so you can do whatever you like with it. In application, I generally keep it in a covering position, in those cases.
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Kishimoto-Di | 2014-Present | Sensei: Ulf Karlsson
Shorin-Ryu/Shinkoten Karate | 2010-Present: Yondan, Renshi | Sensei: Richard Poage (RIP), Jeff Allred (RIP)
Shuri-Ryu | 2006-2010: Sankyu | Sensei: Joey Johnston, Joe Walker (RIP)
Judo | 2007-2010: Gokyu | Sensei: Joe Walker (RIP), Ramon Rivera (RIP), Adrian Rivera
Illinois Practical Karate | International Neoclassical Karate Kobudo Society |
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GojuRyu Bahrain
Orange Belt
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 125
Styles: Goju Ryu, Shotokan, Kobudo, Uechi Ryu
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| Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:13 pm Post subject: |
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| sensei8 wrote: |
Trapping and controlling; a vital staple within Shindokan's brand of Tuite, and then some.
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Seinsei8 wrote it how it is. Nothing to add.
I was told from early on that "no hand comes back empty."
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Goju Ryu (Yushinkan since 1989), Shotokan (JKA since 2005) |
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GojuRyu Bahrain
Orange Belt
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 125
Styles: Goju Ryu, Shotokan, Kobudo, Uechi Ryu
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| Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:19 pm Post subject: Re: Hikite or Fichidi |
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| P.A.L wrote: |
...
in both Shorin-ryu and Goju-ryu I use the hikite hand for OSAE (pushing forward or holding down while in contact) . also hikite hand is my primary bocking/Receiving hand before my front hand. I do two hand blocks even in my Shorin-ryu Shorinkan katas, I just don't show it like Goju-ryu. |
Wouldn't that be more of "Mushimi" principle, i.e., stickiness? I'd use Hikite deliberately (and differently from the stickiness that you describe) to secure an opponents limb (arm) to my torso and get it locked tight onto my body, which allows to apply the maximum amount of force (e.g., for most throws or breaks).
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Goju Ryu (Yushinkan since 1989), Shotokan (JKA since 2005) |
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo
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| Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 3:35 pm Post subject: Re: Hikite or Fichidi |
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| P.A.L wrote: |
first of all , I really like to know the Matsumora Seito take on hikite, I practice with them time to time. So i hope you get into some details for us. |
Rather than writing one of my signature novels, for the sake of time I will try to simplify the meaning of Fichidi (Hikite).
As a kid I was taught in other arts that this is to increase power in your punch. The explanation was that the centrifugal force generated in this action of pulling/ pushing acted like a spring, increasing the speed and power of the arm extending to strike. This, IMHO, is not the case and is faulty reasoning that a westerner came up with to explain what they did not understand. If this were true this method would be taught in boxing as well as all fighting arts to maximize power. The other faulty premise in those not training in traditional arts is that it leaves you vulnerable as your entire body is open. Again this is a case of not understanding what Fichidi is.
As Wastelander eluded to I have also heard that this is a simultaneous elbow strike and punch combo. Although this could be viable if you found yourself with an attacker to the front and to the rear the issue is how many times would this be employed in combat for the Okinawans/Chinese to create this technique for this purpose. This would have had to be pretty common to warrant the creation of such a technique.
The answer is no, this is not the true meaning of Fichidi (Hikite). So why do we teach this method when striking?
What I was taught is that Fichidi (Hikite) is part of one of the elements of our art, that being Tuidi. In our art we utilize elements with other elements (ie; Tuite with Muto or Tuite with Chibudi, etc.) It is a way to off balance, neutralize and gain the advantage over your opponent while making it difficult for your opponent to counter attack and making it easy for you to end the fight with minimal resistance.
The methodology behind this technique is to grab the attacker’s weapon (arm, wrist) and twist it and then pull him into you as you strike them or to turn it into a throw or submissive hold. The concept behind this is that we use certain muscles to pull. If you were to simply pull your attackers arm he would be able to equalize your attempt if he were equally matched in strength or over power you if he were stronger. It has to do with body mechanics. In order to pull, you must engage the biceps and latissimus dorsi muscles. By twisting the opponents arm it straights it and turns the elbow over thus making it much more difficult for them to engage their primary muscles in order to pull back.
On the other side of the coin you are engaging your primary muscles as you turn your fist up and begin to pull back and thus can easily over power your opponent.
The primary method is to grab the opposite side arm. Basically your left hand grabs his left wrist or arm. As you turn (twist) your hand it turns the opponents arm so that the elbow turns out/up and the arm is straightened. This disengages and elongates the biceps muscles and makes it more difficult to engage them. This also turns the shoulder up and out. This makes it difficult to engage the “latts”. As you pull him forward this also shifts his center of gravity and breaks his balance. At this point he is unable to utilize his other arm to counter as it would be across his body and blocked by his own arm. This gives you the advantage to strike, throw, utilize an arm bar, etc., etc.
If done to the same side arm the action of Fichidi is different as it’s more of a large, open motion such as seen in Quan Fa but the concept is relatively the same.
Interestingly enough this technique comes from Quan Fa and is not the invention of the Okinawan’s although many like to claim it is.
Hope this made sense and helps clarify.
_________________
The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll |
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shortyafter
Orange Belt
Joined: 17 Nov 2016
Posts: 169
Styles: Kyokushinkai, Shotokan
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| Posted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 8:21 am Post subject: Re: Hikite or Fichidi |
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| MatsuShinshii wrote: |
The explanation was that the centrifugal force generated in this action of pulling/ pushing acted like a spring, increasing the speed and power of the arm extending to strike. This, IMHO, is not the case and is faulty reasoning that a westerner came up with to explain what they did not understand. If this were true this method would be taught in boxing as well as all fighting arts to maximize power. The other faulty premise in those not training in traditional arts is that it leaves you vulnerable as your entire body is open. Again this is a case of not understanding what Fichidi is.
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I'm by no means an expert but isn't the idea of traditional karate one strike, one kill/KO? So leaving yourself open wouldn't necessarily be a problem, because theoretically the opponent would be down before he can counter. If you look at it that way the centrifugal force idea could make more sense. Whether or not the idea is actually valid, I don't know, but it would make more sense in karate than in boxing IMO. |
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo
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| Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 8:54 am Post subject: Re: Hikite or Fichidi |
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| shortyafter wrote: |
| MatsuShinshii wrote: |
The explanation was that the centrifugal force generated in this action of pulling/ pushing acted like a spring, increasing the speed and power of the arm extending to strike. This, IMHO, is not the case and is faulty reasoning that a westerner came up with to explain what they did not understand. If this were true this method would be taught in boxing as well as all fighting arts to maximize power. The other faulty premise in those not training in traditional arts is that it leaves you vulnerable as your entire body is open. Again this is a case of not understanding what Fichidi is.
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I'm by no means an expert but isn't the idea of traditional karate one strike, one kill/KO? So leaving yourself open wouldn't necessarily be a problem, because theoretically the opponent would be down before he can counter. If you look at it that way the centrifugal force idea could make more sense. Whether or not the idea is actually valid, I don't know, but it would make more sense in karate than in boxing IMO. |
While the concept is to finish the opponent quickly and while I’ve heard this term used within the arts this concept does not explain leaving an opening as a purposeful act. I will not go further into this concept but will say this is not a valid explanation of fichidi.
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The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll |
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Nidan Melbourne
KF Sempai
Joined: 21 Aug 2013
Posts: 2358
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Styles: Goju-Ryu, BJJ, Balintawak Arnis
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| Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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Originally we teach our students that it is to assist in engaging the hips more.
As they progress, we teach them that it is applied when: trapping + controlling, pulling the opponent in, striking an opponent from behind (i.e. from a choke) etc. |
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on the post.
