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Hoshin
Yellow Belt
Joined: 11 Apr 2018
Posts: 32
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 Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 7:07 am Post subject: Historical origins of karate. |
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This thread is a spin off from the "Hohen Soken Hakutsuru" thread. i seem to have derailed that thread talking about the origins of karate. so i opened this new thread to discuss it further. (if there is any interest in continuing)
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Hoshin
Yellow Belt
Joined: 11 Apr 2018
Posts: 32
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| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 7:11 am Post subject: |
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Matsushinshii wrote:
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Well since most things Okinawan or from any other country was removed via the Japanese, most documentation (at least written) was long removed and or destroyed in an effort to claim the art as strictly Japanese.
However - if you research the art and where specific techniques come from you will have a very hard time connecting them all to China (Quan Fa) or Okinawa (Ti or Di). If you look at the weapons arts (Buki-gwa), you will find the majority comes from Siam (Thailand). One example would be the Tuifa (tonfa) and Thailands Mae Sawks (Hope I spelled that right). These weapons were not used prior to trade with the Siam empire. Popular belief is they came from a mill handle. Sure they did.
Another hint would be the fact that a man named Annan was ship wrecked and taught his art form of fighting. Some seem to think that this was not a mans name but instead a countries name (Vietnam) which traded with Siam.
If you look at Quan Fa you find many of the open hand techniques that are present within the art. Ti has some of the closed hand techniques but are not reflective of all of the original techniques. So where did they come from?
If you research Muay Boran and look at the techniques you will find that many are identical to the arts.
Yes I may seem short and evasive in my explanations but it's better you do your own research and come to your own conclusions rather than some guy on the web you don't know from Adam telling you that this is so.
IMHO the documentation is there, you just have to find it.
As far as actual written documentation that you can point to and say that's fact... again like most things in the Okinawan culture that revolve around the art of Ti or what is now called Karate, its either been destroyed, was never written down or very hard to find. Interestingly enough some documentation has only been presented in the past 70+ years from families that had kept them secret or had just been passed down from generation to generation. |
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A handful of men, inured to war, proceed to certain victory, while on the contrary numerous armies of raw and undisciplined troops are but multitudes of men dragged to slaughter.
-Flavius Renatus Vegetius- |
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Hoshin
Yellow Belt
Joined: 11 Apr 2018
Posts: 32
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| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 7:12 am Post subject: |
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Hoshin wrote:
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A handful of men, inured to war, proceed to certain victory, while on the contrary numerous armies of raw and undisciplined troops are but multitudes of men dragged to slaughter.
-Flavius Renatus Vegetius- |
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Hoshin
Yellow Belt
Joined: 11 Apr 2018
Posts: 32
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| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 7:13 am Post subject: |
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Matsushinshii wrote:
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Food for thought... there are those that dispute that the Chinese arts influenced the Okinawan arts due to it's dissimilar movements and way techniques and applications are executed. CMA are very fluid with open techniques while OMA are and are not these things. Some will tell you that is enough to prove their point. In fact there have been discussions right here on KF concerning this very thing. Bai He quan and how it does or doesn't resemble Okinawan White Crane techniques.
Muay Thai is a sport where as Muay Boran is a fighting (combat) discipline. Much like old school Jujutsu vs. Judo. Yes they share techniques but not the same concepts or technical applications of those techniques. The elbow, forearm, some fist, shin and knee strikes, low kicks, close fighting did not come from CMA so where then did they derive from? If Mok Gar was established before this time frame you would have an argument for close fighting techniques. IMHO this comes from the Saim (Thailand) influence.
I have no definitive proof nor does anyone that Siam influenced Okinawa. Conversely you have no definitive proof that it did not. However there is enough evidence that points towards this influence that it is my and others belief that it did. To each their own.
I understand your argument but understand that the Okinawan's took what they wanted and made it fit with their own art of Ti and Muto. They made it Okinawan. This means it will not look the same in terms of performance. CMA are very open in most cases and have longer range elements whereas OMA do not follow this methodology and in many cases the techniques and applications that influenced the Okinawan's no longer look or are performed the way the arts that they came from are.
The same is true of Muay Boran. You say there are no Kata in Muay Boran. Your 100% right. The thing you're missing is Annan did not teach Chinto. Chinto was created from Annan's teachings. Two separate things all together. This then neither disproves nor proves Siam's influence.
As far as closed fists go in the CMA's, I did not same that CMA's do not use closed fist techniques. I am saying that all (70% or more) of the closed fist techniques did not come from CMA's. If you read some of the documentation you will find that the open techniques where prevalent in terms of what was taught and passed down from the founders. In their own words mind you.
Again, for me and after doing extensive research I have personally come to this conclusion. If you don't, that's fine. Again to each their own.
I would however tell you that if you took the time to read and look more deeply into the art you would find the very similarities that you said were not there. JMHO. |
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Also you might want to delve deeper into the Kata's applications. Like the old saying goes "never judge a book by it's cover", I would submit that the way a Kata looks is not representative of what it contains or from what influenced it.
If you know (understand) the Kata's applications you tend to see passed what it as a whole appears to be. You might discover it holds answers. Just my 2 cents. |
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A handful of men, inured to war, proceed to certain victory, while on the contrary numerous armies of raw and undisciplined troops are but multitudes of men dragged to slaughter.
-Flavius Renatus Vegetius- |
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Hoshin
Yellow Belt
Joined: 11 Apr 2018
Posts: 32
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| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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https://toshujutsu.wordpress.com/2014/03/11/siamese-boxing-the-root-of-karate-by-hanshi-patrick-mccarthy/
it seems to me that Matsushinshii's view echos of the same view as Patrick McCarthy's.
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| I am satisfied with the results of this study and sincerely hope my presentation has succeeded in illustrating how and why Muay Boran [i.e., Siamese Boxing] represents the original source from which came Ti’gwa |
Im sorry Mr. McCarthy but your blog post did not succeed in illustrating your premise.
there seems to be a question about the disconnect between the performance of karate and that of Chinese Quan fa. the sentiment has been made that karate is direct and hard where as Chinese arts are large and flowing.
well as Mr. McCarthy was so kind to point out , martial arts change over time. we have a tendency to compare Japanese karate styles to the modern Wushu styles and think they do not look the same. it would be important to keep in mind that kung fu of the 1900 era in Fuchou was not large and flowing. as far Okinawan styles go the style that most resembles Muay Thai is Uechi-Ryu. they share low leg kicks and lots of elbows and knee strikes. its a very hard style no flowery movemnts and relativly simple in complexity. but as i pointed out this is one of the most compete and direct Chinese style there is on Okinawa.
Chinese arts before the boxer rebellion (1900) in the Fujian area were different then they are now. after this point in time the Chinese government has increasingly interfered with martial arts. making all but government sponsored arts basically illegal. it is because of this that most of the smaller fight effective/ oriented systems ,, the ones where Uechi ryu and Goju ryu originated from have disappeared.
however many of these older styles still exist in Taiwan and Singapore.
if we are going to say karate looks more like Muay Thai, lets make sure we are comparing apples to apples.
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A handful of men, inured to war, proceed to certain victory, while on the contrary numerous armies of raw and undisciplined troops are but multitudes of men dragged to slaughter.
-Flavius Renatus Vegetius- |
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Hoshin
Yellow Belt
Joined: 11 Apr 2018
Posts: 32
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| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 4:31 pm Post subject: |
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มวยไทยไชยา
https://youtu.be/yV__ZFuocys
so has it happens my wife is from Thailand and has dual citizenship with the US 
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A handful of men, inured to war, proceed to certain victory, while on the contrary numerous armies of raw and undisciplined troops are but multitudes of men dragged to slaughter.
-Flavius Renatus Vegetius- |
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Hoshin
Yellow Belt
Joined: 11 Apr 2018
Posts: 32
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| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 5:10 pm Post subject: |
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in this video at 20.00 min, they show punching technique.
looking at the manner in which they punch, how they generate power, the angles and foot work & stance...it is very different from karate.
notice that they never draw the hand back to the "chambered" position with the hand next to the ribs. also notable is that the power in the straight punch comes from the rotation of the shoulders rather than the hips.
https://youtu.be/UF6s7YnVw_M
there are subtitles but they are very poor.
_________________
A handful of men, inured to war, proceed to certain victory, while on the contrary numerous armies of raw and undisciplined troops are but multitudes of men dragged to slaughter.
-Flavius Renatus Vegetius- |
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo
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| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Hoshin wrote: |
https://toshujutsu.wordpress.com/2014/03/11/siamese-boxing-the-root-of-karate-by-hanshi-patrick-mccarthy/
it seems to me that Matsushinshii's view echos of the same view as Patrick McCarthy's.
| Quote: |
| I am satisfied with the results of this study and sincerely hope my presentation has succeeded in illustrating how and why Muay Boran [i.e., Siamese Boxing] represents the original source from which came Ti’gwa |
Im sorry Mr. McCarthy but your blog post did not succeed in illustrating your premise.
there seems to be a question about the disconnect between the performance of karate and that of Chinese Quan fa. the sentiment has been made that karate is direct and hard where as Chinese arts are large and flowing.
well as Mr. McCarthy was so kind to point out , martial arts change over time. we have a tendency to compare Japanese karate styles to the modern Wushu styles and think they do not look the same. it would be important to keep in mind that kung fu of the 1900 era in Fuchou was not large and flowing. as far Okinawan styles go the style that most resembles Muay Thai is Uechi-Ryu. they share low leg kicks and lots of elbows and knee strikes. its a very hard style no flowery movemnts and relativly simple in complexity. but as i pointed out this is one of the most compete and direct Chinese style there is on Okinawa.
Chinese arts before the boxer rebellion (1900) in the Fujian area were different then they are now. after this point in time the Chinese government has increasingly interfered with martial arts. making all but government sponsored arts basically illegal. it is because of this that most of the smaller fight effective/ oriented systems ,, the ones where Uechi ryu and Goju ryu originated from have disappeared.
however many of these older styles still exist in Taiwan and Singapore.
if we are going to say karate looks more like Muay Thai, lets make sure we are comparing apples to apples. |
Again I'll allow you to make your own assumptions but my view point does not come from Mr. McCarthy although I have read his books and find similarities. My view point comes from speaking with my Shinshii's Shinshii and others during my stays on Okinawa. It also comes from things that I can plainly see for myself and draw the similarities from that are impossible to dismiss.
Again, I have no written proof other than others theories. However I can make an assessment from what I have been told, what I have read and what I have seen. Unlike the masses I do not take things at face value based on this expert or that. I do not follow others like that of Mr. McCarthy, although I respect him for his research and years of dedication. What I have posted are my view points that are based on my years of study and research and that of speaking with those that are closer to the history than any western so called expert.
The truth is, none of us truly know. We weren't there iwhen Higa, Choken, Yara, Takahara, or Matsumura and others were alive and as far as I have been able to find, they did not do detailed interviews or leave written documentation outlining the art and what influenced it. At best we are making logical guesses based on the historical accounts of generations that came after these and other men. Even these can be looked at with a skeptical eye as the accounts are based on one persons word and their understanding of the history. Who's to say its right?
Bottom line... you, I and everyone else that have or is training and studying their art has to come to their own conclusions based on what they are able to uncover and based on what they are told and read.
I look at the weapons of the Okinawan arts and know they did not come from farm implements. I understand that the Okinawan people took from other cultures to improve their own fighting style. I look at examples of weapons in other countries and then research the age and come to a logical conclusion as one example. If I compile what I know and what I can see for myself, dismiss the ravings of western experts, I, like you or anyone else, can come to a logical conclusion based on what is presented and what we can find.
I have many reasons to believe what I believe. But in the end it's one mans opinion based on my experiences and my own research. If you came up with a differing opinion based on your experiences and research that is contrary to mine that's great! At least your doing research and questing after a deeper understanding of your art. We agree to disagree and that's OK.
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The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll |
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo
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| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Hoshin wrote: |
in this video at 20.00 min, they show punching technique.
looking at the manner in which they punch, how they generate power, the angles and foot work & stance...it is very different from karate.
notice that they never draw the hand back to the "chambered" position with the hand next to the ribs. also notable is that the power in the straight punch comes from the rotation of the shoulders rather than the hips.
https://youtu.be/UF6s7YnVw_M
there are subtitles but they are very poor. |
I am well aware of the techniques of Muay Thai.
You actually said it in a previous post. Techniques change over the years and what was may not be the same now.
I have never said that the Okinawan's mimicked or copied another countries way of fighting. Examples of this are clearly seen in Suidi. They look and are performed either the same, slightly differently or in most cases very differently. This can be easily explained. They made the techniques and not the art their own. They did not steel or teach the art but took principles and techniques and incorporated them to fit their way of fighting.
You were very sure that the CMA's influenced the art, as well as I am, however in most cases the techniques, other than in appearance, do not look the same because they are not executed the same. Doesn't mean that they are not the same technique, it merely means that it was incorporated into the Okinawan's way of fighting. For lack of a better explanation or term, it was Okinawanized. They made it work for them and thus they were changed.
So I guess I will pose the question; if you had an art like Ti and Tegumi and you learned a new technique from another art but the way it was executed did not make sense or did not work with the way you fought and you changed it, is it not the same technique? Yes it executed differently and because of that it looks differently, but the base principle remains. Do you then say that it was never influenced by that art?
I can see the foundation and thus logically conclude that it is plausible, just like the influence of CMA's is plausible. But there are those that even deny that even with so much evidence pointing to its influence. The Japanese for example tried to wipe out all things associated with CMA's. They did not succeed because not all of the Okinawan teachers accepted this new thing called Karate nor the Dai Nippon Budukukai but there was definitely deniability on their part.
My point is you can believe as you wish. I will believe as I wish. I have my reasons and you have your's. Doesn't make either of us right or wrong. I believe that the Siamese arts played a role in defining the art based on what I have been told, what I have read and what I can conclude.
Showing me colored footage, which means it was taken in the past 30 years, of the Thai arts is great, but by your own admission arts change and adapt over the years. Do you know what Muay Boran looked like in the 15 or 1600's?
How do you know that what we see now is what was represented then. All things adapt. This also applies to Suidi, Tumaadi and Nafaadi (Toudi) or if you wish, "Karate". We know Karate is an adaptation. It focuses only on the striking element of the original art of Toudi.
So with that said let me ask you, have you seen Toudi (To-De) performed? Do you know the differences between Karate of Toudi? [Not questioning your experience or knowledge so do not infer]
If you don't have first hand knowledge of Ti (Di, Te, De) or later Suidi, Tumaadi, Nafaadi as it was performed before the creation of Karate then it's hard to prove one way or another that anything influenced the art other than the Japanese in creating Karate. True?
_________________
The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll |
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo
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| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:01 pm Post subject: |
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Love the debate so far. Good stuff.
However, it just occurred to me that I do not know anything of your back ground. You stated that I made a subtle inference that you have not read enough or had enough experience so to speak. What is your experience?
Since I'm asking you, I'll provide you with mine as an introduction.
I started training at the age of 8 in a Chinese martial art called Fu Jow Pai, a few years later I started my journey in the Okinawan Martial arts and began studying Matsumura Shorin Ryu, Prior to me joining the Marine Corps I also studied Judo. After joining the Corps I started under my current Shinshii in Matsumura Suidi and Ryukyu Kobudo. I have also studied Ryukyu Kenpo, Goju Ryu, Iaido and Kenjutsu, Matsubayashi-Ryu, and dabbled in several Chinese martial arts as research. I have been exposed to many arts but have never lost my passion for my main art. I am currently a Nanadan and hold a Kyoshi teaching license in Matsumura Suidi.
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The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll |
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on the post.
