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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2468
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 Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 5:20 am Post subject: Hobbyists maists vs Professional fighters |
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Hobby vs pro, one does it for the fun of it while the other for the money?
Is the hobbyist less of a maist than the one that does it for profit?
Are professional fighters to be elevated to a higher level of expertise than everyone else?
Is being a sadistic type of fighter, really worth training for?
Is it proper practice to become a martial artists just to learn how to hurt others? |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16420
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 6:58 am Post subject: Re: Hobbyists maists vs Professional fighters |
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| Alan Armstrong wrote: |
| Hobby vs pro, one does it for the fun of it while the other for the money? |
Can't excel at the MA if one doesn't have fun while training; might as well not even pursue it at any level. And in a way, as the owner and CI, I'm not only doing the MA for fun, but I'm also doing the MA for money; dojo/retail is there to make a profit at the end of the day.
| Alan Armstrong wrote: |
| Is the hobbyist less of a maist than the one that does it for profit? |
NO!! A MAist is a MAist!!
| Alan Armstrong wrote: |
| Are professional fighters to be elevated to a higher level of expertise than everyone else? |
No! While a pro-fighter might have an edge, that edge can be dulled forthwith at any moment; can't win every time, and that right there, is where the rubber meets the road in the human factor that we all share...from time to time.
| Alan Armstrong wrote: |
| Is being a sadistic type of fighter, really worth training for? |
Interesting how you worded that question. Any training is worth doing is worth doing it right. In one way or another, that sadistic streak is in all of us, and not just in MAists.
| Alan Armstrong wrote: |
| Is it proper practice to become a martial artists just to learn how to hurt others? |
That too, is an interesting wording of a question. It's proper to learn how to defend oneself effectively, and to do that...guess what??
My attacker's going to get hurt, even if it's only in the slightest. Comes with the territory. I can be the most violent person that you can ever meet whenever I have to defend myself; I don't apologize for that because all's fair in love and war.
Imho!!
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**Proof is on the floor!!! |
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TJ-Jitsu
Blue Belt
Joined: 30 Sep 2014
Posts: 316
Location: PA
Styles: Gracie Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai
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| Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:59 am Post subject: Re: Hobbyists maists vs Professional fighters |
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Wonder what sparked this thread.... 
| Alan Armstrong wrote: |
Hobby vs pro, one does it for the fun of it while the other for the money?
Is the hobbyist less of a maist than the one that does it for profit? |
Just because someone is a pro fighter doesn't really mean they're a skilled fighter. Likewise with being "good."
| Alan Armstrong wrote: |
Are professional fighters to be elevated to a higher level of expertise than everyone else? |
As I've said in the past, I've worked with some professional fighters and said "dear god man, how do you survive in the cage?" In other words just by virtue of being a pro fighter doesn't indicate a certain amount of knowledge- many get by on athleticism rather than technique. Furthermore, it'd be a common logical fallacy "argument from authority" to suggest that merely by being a pro they know.
This however does not mean that by default if someone practices "martial arts" their opinions are therefore valid. Theres a lot of really really bad stuff out there and far too many people with opinions and theories that really shouldn't be giving out any suggestions...
| Alan Armstrong wrote: |
Is being a sadistic type of fighter, really worth training for?
Is it proper practice to become a martial artists just to learn how to hurt others?
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You're making an assumption with the first question and asking a relative question on the second. Not all fighters are sadistic Far as learning how to just hurt others- YES. That's kind of the idea here. This is kind of why I tell people that I'm a fighter as opposed to "I do martial arts." I have no interest in philosophy as it pertains to fighting- theres no overlap IMO. |
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singularity6
Pre-Black Belt
Joined: 26 Jun 2017
Posts: 958
Location: Michigan
Styles: Jidokwan Taekwondo and Hapkido, Yoshokai Aikido, ZNIR Iaido, Kendo
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| Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 7:32 am Post subject: |
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For some (myself included,) practicing martial arts is personal. We compete with ourselves, and aim to perfect our bodies and mind. This is more of a lifestyle than a hobby.
Not everyone is satisfied with self-competition, however. They need others to compete against. In my opinion, this does not change the purity of martial arts - it's merely a different approach.
When you say professional, that means something different to me. Anyone who's teaching martial arts could be considered a professional martial artist, in my book. They are doing it as a profession, after all. Someone who trains to fight for money is a professional fighter, and this is different to me.
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5th Geup Jidokwan Tae Kwon Do/Hap Ki Do
(Never officially tested in aikido, iaido or kendo) |
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JR 137
Black Belt
Joined: 10 May 2015
Posts: 2442
Location: In the dojo
Styles: Seido Juku
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| Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 8:43 am Post subject: |
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Pretty loaded questions, if you ask me...
For the money vs the loves it...
My teacher retired from his full time, non-MA job. He opened the dojo because he loves training and teaching. He makes enough to keep the place open, cover some of his training expenses, and maybe, just maybe take a vacation once a year. He could try to open a bigger and nicer place and attract more students and raise the price, but he's content. It's his retirement job at this point, and him and his wife (co-owner) have very good pensions and don't rely on money from the dojo.
My former teacher's main source of income was/is his dojo. That doesn't mean he chose karate as his profession because he thought it would make him wealthy. He chose it because it's what he loved. He earns a decent living by working class standards, and he's fine with that. It's like the saying - if you love what you're doing, it's not "work."
Is the hobbyist less or more of an MAist? Nope. One may be more passionate about it, might train harder, etc., but that's an individual thing, not a paid vs hobbyist thing. Also, see above.
Pro fighter vs everyone else...
Stereotypically pro fighters have different expertise than everyone else. A pro fighter's expertise is his/her own training and competing. A teacher's expertise is teaching others. A pro fighter's expertise may be very narrow/focused, whereas someone like me's expertise may be broader in context. Pro fighters, teachers, and students all have different goals. Their training must reflect those goals if they're going to reach them. There's some crossover, but if a pro fighter trained the way I train, he/she wouldn't be very successful. If I trained the way they train, I wouldn't be as successful at reaching mine. If my teacher trained to beat Connor McGregor, he wouldn't meet his own teaching goals. And none of us would last long enough to meet our own goals. We all have different types of expertise, based on our own goals.
As far as being sadistic and training to hurt others. Some train so they don't have to hurt others. Some train to hurt others as little as possible/necessary while keeping themselves from getting hurt. Some train simply as an alternative form of exercise. Some train to compete. Some just want to look like Bruce Lee (the way he moves).
The few people who train solely to hurt others either don't last very long or change their reasons for training shortly after they start. |
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DWx
Black Belt
Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 6455
Location: UK
Styles: Tae Kwon Do & Yang family Tai Chi
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| Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 11:17 am Post subject: |
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Professional fighters? The big difference versus a hobbyist is the amount of time and the level to which they train. Putting in the hours at the gym and in the dojo will yield a high level fighter.
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"Everything has its beauty, but not everyone sees it." ~ Confucius |
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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| Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 5:13 pm Post subject: |
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| DWx wrote: |
| Professional fighters? The big difference versus a hobbyist is the amount of time and the level to which they train. Putting in the hours at the gym and in the dojo will yield a high level fighter. |
This, and many of them are very talented athletes, too. It makes a difference. Like TJ mentioned, some of them are just getting by on being an athlete, a great athlete. Time and training will only make them better, if they really focus on what they are training and why.
I'm sure the guys in the fight business like the fact that they can make some money doing what they love, but I would guess for most of them, its the competing that they love.
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www.haysgym.com
http://www.sunyis.com/
www.aikidoofnorthwestkansas.com |
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo
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| Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 6:29 pm Post subject: Re: Hobbyists maists vs Professional fighters |
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[quote="Alan Armstrong"]Hobby vs pro, one does it for the fun of it while the other for the money?
| Alan Armstrong wrote: |
| Is the hobbyist less of a maist than the one that does it for profit? |
If you study the arts and do so for a life time does this make you a hobbiest or a pro. What makes someone a pro? Is it strictly fighting, teaching, etc?
A MA'ist IMHO is someone that diligently seeks to learn a form of combative art and to improve themselves within that art to the extent that they can effectively defend themselves. Does that make them a hobbiest or a pro?
In my mind hobbiest is someone that does something every now and then with no intent on making it a staple component in their lives. Most MA'ists would not fit this description. I'm sure you could also call a person that teaches for the love of it rather than for the money a hobbiest. If so guilty.
| Alan Armstrong wrote: |
| Are professional fighters to be elevated to a higher level of expertise than everyone else? |
Being a pro just means you have gone into the fight game full time. That does not mean your successful doing so. So no.
| Alan Armstrong wrote: |
Is being a sadistic type of fighter, really worth training for?
Is it proper practice to become a martial artists just to learn how to hurt others? |
Kind of think you feel that those that study the arts are out to hurt others. If so you have not met many MA'ists.
However yes the truth is that we learn to stop, hurt, maim and even kill. But that does not mean this is the underlying intention of those that study the arts. It was created for battle so you are going to learn combative techniques. It's what the individual gets out of it that's important not an assumption of sadism or violence that one might put onto the practitioner.
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The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll |
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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2468
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| Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 3:19 am Post subject: |
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[QUOTE="MatsuShinshii"]
| Alan Armstrong wrote: |
Hobby vs pro, one does it for the fun of it while the other for the money?
| Alan Armstrong wrote: |
| Is the hobbyist less of a maist than the one that does it for profit? |
If you study the arts and do so for a life time does this make you a hobbiest or a pro. What makes someone a pro? Is it strictly fighting, teaching, etc?
A MA'ist IMHO is someone that diligently seeks to learn a form of combative art and to improve themselves within that art to the extent that they can effectively defend themselves. Does that make them a hobbiest or a pro?
In my mind hobbiest is someone that does something every now and then with no intent on making it a staple component in their lives. Most MA'ists would not fit this description. I'm sure you could also call a person that teaches for the love of it rather than for the money a hobbiest. If so guilty.
| Alan Armstrong wrote: |
| Are professional fighters to be elevated to a higher level of expertise than everyone else? |
Being a pro just means you have gone into the fight game full time. That does not mean your successful doing so. So no.
| Alan Armstrong wrote: |
Is being a sadistic type of fighter, really worth training for?
Is it proper practice to become a martial artists just to learn how to hurt others? |
Kind of think you feel that those that study the arts are out to hurt others. If so you have not met many MA'ists.
However yes the truth is that we learn to stop, hurt, maim and even kill. But that does not mean this is the underlying intention of those that study the arts. It was created for battle so you are going to learn combative techniques. It's what the individual gets out of it that's important not an assumption of sadism or violence that one might put onto the practitioner. |
Hope to start a topic on "assumptions in martial arts" but not yet. (Referring to the bold type) |
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JazzKicker
Orange Belt
Joined: 07 Aug 2017
Posts: 174
Location: NJ
Styles: Hapkido, JKD, TSD
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| Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:28 am Post subject: Re: Hobbyists maists vs Professional fighters |
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| Alan Armstrong wrote: |
Hobby vs pro, one does it for the fun of it while the other for the money?
Is the hobbyist less of a maist than the one that does it for profit?
Are professional fighters to be elevated to a higher level of expertise than everyone else?
Is being a sadistic type of fighter, really worth training for?
Is it proper practice to become a martial artists just to learn how to hurt others? |
1. Most likely, simply because the hobbyist doesn't put as much time into training
2. One has to elevate themselves through effort, that's just whether you're an expert or just a beginner
3. A sadist is someone who derives sexual pleasure from inflicting pain on others. I don't think it's even relevant.
4. Yes, of course, if that's your goal. If you're just in it for sport, like boxing, or fitness, that's different. If it's just fitness you want and don't want to learn how to punch/kick/jointlock/throw/choke someone, go take Zumba.
As far as what a "pro" is, a studio instructor/owner is really more an educator, and a UFC fighter is a competitive athlete, essentially an entertainer. As an amateur you really have much more freedom to pursue martial arts they way you want, without financial pressure. |
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on the post.
