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singularity6
Pre-Black Belt
Pre-Black Belt

Joined: 26 Jun 2017
Posts: 958
Location: Michigan
Styles: Jidokwan Taekwondo and Hapkido, Yoshokai Aikido, ZNIR Iaido, Kendo

PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

People obsess about the "traditional way" simply because it's the only way they know. If it was how they had to learn, and they took something from it, then it must be good.

I have a lot of memories about "how I was taught." Those, however, are subject to my perspective. Simply trying to teach "what you remember" isn't the way to go. Teaching needs to evolve; to develop. There is a bit of experimentation that should take place. One needs to learn from their students and those around them, as well. When feedback is good, it's easy to pat oneself on the back and proceed on that course. When it's bad, it's easy to dismiss it as whining. It never hurts to take a moment and ask yourself "why?" when the whining starts.
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5th Geup Jidokwan Tae Kwon Do/Hap Ki Do

(Never officially tested in aikido, iaido or kendo)
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Depending on who you talk to you will get varying accounts of when or when not to teach students applications (Tichiki).

I teach as my Shinshii taught me.

The Kata is taught in it's entirety.

Once the student has a foundation (has the rudimentary movements down) we start to teach them the applications and also focus on the movements, body shifting and weight distribution.

This does not all happen at once. We might focus on the first few movements and the different applications they represent and incorporate the movement, body shifting and weight distribution to give better understanding. Once the student has learned a few applications we have them partner up against students of various sizes to utilize their new knowledge. At first the partner is cooperative. After a bit of time the partner becomes less and less cooperative until the partner completely resists and tries to thwart the students attempts to apply the application. This allows the student to understand what works for them and what doesn't. I do not believe that every application works for every student. Body types, mechanics and the like will dictate what works best.

I personally have studied arts that hold off all explanations of Kata and what they represent until you reach the Yudansha grades. However I have never understood this. I personally feel it is best to teach the student the applications when they start to learn the Kata. In this way it gives the Kata meaning and I don't have to double back once they reach Yudansha to re-teach them every Kata. It also gives the student a deeper understanding of the art from the start.

May not be right for everyone but that is how I was taught and it's the way I prefer to teach the art.
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The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll
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scohen0300
Member of the Month
Member of the Month

Joined: 09 Feb 2016
Posts: 91
Location: Long Island, NY
Styles: Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu (Shodan), Vinyasa Yoga (200 RYT)

PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I want to thank you all for sharing your experience with me! I have MASS amounts of respect for my Sensei, but only in the way that he used to teach his art. Maybe heís lost his motivation? Iím not sure. But itís very refreshing to hear these responses.

Iím a relatively new yoga teacher, and as thatís my source of income, Iím trying to build that to make sure I can keep it that way - not leaving as much time or energy to practice martial arts as Iíd like, but I get my fix when I need it. However, my passion for the martial arts will never die and I truly hope to teach my own views someday. Namaste!
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LastKing
Yellow Belt
Yellow Belt

Joined: 07 May 2015
Posts: 69


PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 2:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've only just taken on our club, but have found that teaching bunkai after a short sequence of moves really entertains the kids and helps them learn the moves.
I always found when learning kata that if I knew why I would be doing a particular technique, I'd learn the kata much quicker.
I think relavance is key to understanding. Abstract tends too much towards the etherial.
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 14334
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Over and over and over and over...until the end of time, and then some. That's one of the most basic way I can reach/teach my students anything; serious endless solid repetition.

Anything less than that is unforgivable!!



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**Proof is on the floor!!!
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LastKing wrote:
I've only just taken on our club, but have found that teaching bunkai after a short sequence of moves really entertains the kids and helps them learn the moves.
I always found when learning kata that if I knew why I would be doing a particular technique, I'd learn the kata much quicker.
I think relavance is key to understanding. Abstract tends too much towards the etherial.


Agreed. It's the aha moment. Without an understanding its just something that they have to do to get to their next belt.

I have taken other arts (earlier in my life) that did not teach the applications and I always found it funny that the students were least excited when it was time to learn a Kata. I've even heard the occasional "Ahh Man!" or the question "how does this have anything to do with fighting or how can this help me be a better fighter".

It's amazing how little resistance you get when they understand why they are doing something and how excited they become to learn more.
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The person who succeeds is not the one who holds back, fearing failure, nor the one who never fails-but the one who moves on in spite of failure.
Charles R. Swindoll
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 14334
Location: Houston, TX
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Isn't it all about movement, and the understanding of it!?! In conjunction, the movements of Tai Sabaki along with Ashi Sabaki along with Te Sabaki, bring an understanding, slowy, one by one.

Nothing found in any Kata and/or in any Bunkai is achieved without having the effective said understanding of movement. Why??

One can't effectively move in any shape, way, and/or form without understanding that one must move, and in that, how to move, and in that, in which way to move, and in that, why to move in any given direction.

What good are any of the techniques found and/or discovered in and out of Kata and/or Bunkai, no matter which one, if one can't effective move.

Posture and balance are everything to any technique if ones to be effective, and these are tangible proponents of movement.

This, and all that surrounds movement, is where I start, and continue to teach Kata/Bunkai, because if I don't start there, then the student is only mimicking, in which, nothing of effective value is ever learnt by just mimicking; there must be solidity of the highest order.

Imho!!



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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2146


PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't teach katas or bunki to the student directly, I do however give them videos to study for the level that they are at.

This way I can personally explain the importance of the kata, the essence of it, on a profound level of understanding, even if it takes a year towards knowing why it is practiced.

The reason for this way of teaching is that of course the movements can be performed and mimicked in a class room setting, where I want the student to absorb as many of the what's and whys as possible separately during the class instead of learning, time consuming choreography.

Practising together with the student, separate aspects of the kata at a close up and personal perspective, analysing and suggesting the multitude of possibilities moves contain, usually focusing on energy concepts, also attacking and counter attacking strategies.

With the kata containing body mechanics, leverage and levers, fulcrum strengths and weaknesses, weight distribution and body mass, using gravity and body structure, using energy simultaneously in different movements and directions, yin/yang concepts, speed and timing, cause and effects, when to be soft/yeilding and hard/forceful, as well as muscle memory and conditioning, also explaining terminology and self defence possibilities...

As there are many concepts to learn from a single kata, it will make more sense to the student when contemplating it as explained and they practicing it alone over time, as I can only correct the student, as it is their responsibility to learn its choreographed movements, while I help towards refining and explaining its combat purposes and applications.
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Spartacus Maximus
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 01 Jun 2014
Posts: 1717

Styles: Shorin ryu

PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 6:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The most effective way from personal experience is for people to understand the purpose and application of each part of a kata. This is done by separating kata into sequences and drilling each sequence of techniques with a partner. Each kata is taught in conjunction with a basic application to highlight the principle. At more advanced level people are shown other possible applications and allowed to explore other possibilities.
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Alan Armstrong
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 28 Feb 2016
Posts: 2146


PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spartacus Maximus wrote:
The most effective way from personal experience is for people to understand the purpose and application of each part of a kata. This is done by separating kata into sequences and drilling each sequence of techniques with a partner. Each kata is taught in conjunction with a basic application to highlight the principle. At more advanced level people are shown other possible applications and allowed to explore other possibilities.


Well done Spartacus Maximus, nice and concise explanation!
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