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tallgeese
Black Belt
Joined: 04 May 2008
Posts: 6879
Location: McHenry County, IL
Styles: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Bujin Bugei Jutsu, Gokei Ryu Kempo Jutsu, MMA, Shootfighting, boxing, kickboxing, JKD, Pekiti Tersia Kali
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 Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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I agree that cutting an angle to the incoming force is the way to go. Even if it is minimal. This could be as simple as turning in relation to the force while countering, or it could be something akin to stepping to an off line position with the incoming force.
Given possible environmental considerations; however, it's important to have trained some negative position work in regards to stuff like this. It's entirely possible that one might be ambushed between cars in a parking lot for example and thus negating the ability to cut angles.
You still need to have a plan. So, even though everyone will probably say getting off line is the best route to go. It's beneficial to train for the not so ideal situation. In this case, it's best to find other ways to move around the force he presents by moving utilizing level changes.
It's also beneficial when faced with this sort of thing, to attack back into the force (with level change) rather than get caught being pressed back and subsequently overrun by said overwhelming force.
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yamesu
Black Belt
Joined: 13 Jul 2004
Posts: 1391
Location: Oceania <-> Asia
Styles: Kyokushin. MT. Arnis. Judo. JediMantre.
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 11:55 pm Post subject: |
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I believe there is no better option than not being there in the first place. A previous poster noted the fact that willingly being in the wrong place with the worng people will inevitably lead to the wrong things happening.
Second to this - getting off the line of the force is a sound strategy, and even cutting angles as previously noted can assist absorbing the force if impact does still happen (think about the whole training 45 degrees during simple Karate blocks).
As a final note - unless its a Sabaki defence, circular blocking can do wonders for large amounts of force. In Kyokushin we drill Shuto Mawashi Uke (see here for a visual: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETFBjAdYSfc its not the best indication of the technique but gives and idea...), and this, used in conjunction with a Sabaki step, can be quite effective at nullifying or redirecting force from a powerful blow. its difficult to handle a full-force roundhouse kick head on, but using a few simple principles, the risk of damage can be mitigated.
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"We did not inherit this earth from our parents.
We are borrowing it from our children." |
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shadowspawn
Orange Belt
Joined: 09 Mar 2012
Posts: 108
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| Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:06 am Post subject: |
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| yamesu wrote: |
I believe there is no better option than not being there in the first place. A previous poster noted the fact that willingly being in the wrong place with the worng people will inevitably lead to the wrong things happening.
Second to this - getting off the line of the force is a sound strategy, and even cutting angles as previously noted can assist absorbing the force if impact does still happen (think about the whole training 45 degrees during simple Karate blocks).
As a final note - unless its a Sabaki defence, circular blocking can do wonders for large amounts of force. In Kyokushin we drill Shuto Mawashi Uke (see here for a visual: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETFBjAdYSfc its not the best indication of the technique but gives and idea...), and this, used in conjunction with a Sabaki step, can be quite effective at nullifying or redirecting force from a powerful blow. its difficult to handle a full-force roundhouse kick head on, but using a few simple principles, the risk of damage can be mitigated. |
In our style we simply refer to it as shuto uke. In practice, it is referred to as a "parry". In reality, if you do the technique right (the inside sidestepping movement), you don't even need to block. The block (or in this case parry) is simply there to continue their momentum and lengthen the amount of time it would take for them to fire with their other side.
As per a full force mawashi geri, we're taught to simply get in as close as you can so the focus point of their power ends up passing harmlessly behind you. From there, you can hook their leg and take them down or whatever you want to do. Moving at an angle is the best option for this though as moving straight ahead cuts the amount of time you have to move down by a few milliseconds which can make all the difference in whether you take the brunt of the impact or not. It's often referred to as a very "banzai" move since you're closing as much distance as you can with your opponent and risk running straight into a follow up strike if you don't keep your guard up.
As per getting out of the way of the oncoming force can still be attributed to "not being there in the first place". I mean if there's that huge truck coming at 90 mph on the freeway, the best thing is not to be standing in the middle of the freeway in the first place. But if you do, for some reason, end up having to stand in the freeway, you can still "not be there" by willingly moving out of the way. That's the secret to pretty much every problem though isn't it? Just don't put yourself in a position that the problem would present itself. |
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Kodakmint
Orange Belt
Joined: 15 Jan 2012
Posts: 132
Styles: American Freestyle Karate
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| Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 7:38 am Post subject: |
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| If your overwhelwhelming force could be thought of as an unstoppable force then the counter would logically be an immovable object. |
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JusticeZero
Black Belt
Joined: 02 Apr 2005
Posts: 2166
Location: AK
Styles: Capoeira Angola
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| Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 9:00 am Post subject: |
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How are we defining "overwhelming force"? What are we picturing as being the force?
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"Anything worth doing is worth doing badly." - Baleia |
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:54 pm Post subject: |
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| DWx wrote: |
| Groinstrike wrote: |
| Liver Punch wrote: |
| Shoot it. Twice. |
And if that doesn't work, keep shooting, then throw your gun at it. |
and then scream like a little girl? |
No. Empty all mags, then retreat to truck to retrieve AR-15. When that is empty, retrieve shotgun. Backup should have arrived by then.
However, if what Bob is describing is like an offensive onslaught of some kind, then working an angle to get an advantage, and then commencing one's own offensive onslaught would be a way to start.
Easily said, though.
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http://www.sunyis.com/
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Montana
Pre-Black Belt
Joined: 18 Apr 2007
Posts: 883
Location: Formerly Kalispell, Montana, now Spokane, WA
Styles: Shorin Ryu Matsumura Kenpo & Kobudo
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| Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Liver Punch wrote: |
| Shoot it. Twice. |
The problem with this is where you live. In California, if you even have a gun, you shoot "it" once...it doesn't die, you get sued and pay for the rest of your life.
Hopwever, in Montana and Texas and a few other states, you shoot it once...twice...8-10 times, reload if needed and keep on shooting. Even an overwhelming force will stop if you have enough lead weighing it down. 
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If you don't want to stand behind our troops, please..feel free to stand in front of them.
Student since January 1975---4th Dan, retired due to non-martial arts related injuries. |
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ps1
Black Belt
Joined: 09 Nov 2004
Posts: 3025
Location: NE Ohio
Styles: Chuan Fa, Shotokan, JJJ, BJJ
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| Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 8:23 pm Post subject: |
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By definition, it's overwhelming. There is no counter or save. You simply lose.
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"It is impossible to make anything foolproof because fools are so ingenius." |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16420
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 7:20 am Post subject: |
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One defines the overwhelming force, not anyone else. What's overwhelming for me, is not overwhelming for another, and in that, overwhelming force parameters change within oneself for many reason(s).
For me, overwhelming force is an attack who's advancements are quicker and more powerful than I had hoped for, and in that, my defenses, for the immediate moment, are lacking until adjustments are made to effectively counter.
A loud Kiai, can be an overwhelming force, for the immediate moment because one can be startled just enough by a Kiai for an attack to succeed.
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**Proof is on the floor!!! |
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darksoul
Purple Belt
Joined: 19 Jul 2012
Posts: 548
Location: Montréal, QC, Canada
Styles: Shaolin Kempo
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| Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 8:14 am Post subject: |
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An overwhelming force can be hard to stop, but it can be deflected and redirected. When confronted by an overwhelming force, use that overwhelming force against itself!
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Shodan - Shaolin Kempo
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on the post.
