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Sailor Sindbad
White Belt
White Belt

Joined: 05 Dec 2019
Posts: 19

Styles: Kobayashi Shorin-ryu

PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2022 12:24 pm    Post subject: Re: How would you convince somone to train Karate over.. Reply with quote

DarthPenguin wrote:
Sailor Sindbad wrote:
GS718Trek wrote:
What explanation would you offer if someone asked you which martial art they should learn for self defense or fighting? How would you explain the advantages and disadvantages of Karate over other martial arts like BJJ, Muay Thai, Boxing?


For "self defense or fighting," it depends on how immediate the need is. If it's a kid who is getting physically bullied at school, or anyone else getting physically assaulted on a regular basis for that matter, I'm only going to recommend boxing. No other martial art but boxing.

For anyone who wants to learn "self defense or fighting" for "just in case" purposes, then karate actually enters the debate.


Actually, i might disagree here from personal experience, though i think things have changed over time. I first started karate at 5 for that very reason (without going into too much detail i was picked on a lot due to being mixed race). Started mid 80s in the UK and trained 4 times a wk almost from the get go.

I actually found it very useful self defence wise when a kid: i could throw a punch with a decent amount of power and generally handle myself reasonably. Over time (and a lot of fights) i began to be targeted a lot less.

For context, before i started i would always lose - in particular this one kid always stepped in and gave me a kicking. About 3mths after starting karate i broke his nose with a punch and he never tried again. At the time i was also tiny: i didn't grow til my mid teens really so i was always a small kid

I do know though that things might have changed a lot now and karate might not be as good self defence art for kids anymore, based on how it is currently taught.

Just my 10p worth


Yeah, but I didn't see you mention anything about experience with boxing. Walk into you nearest boxing gym, and just watch a whole session. You'll see the difference immediately.

IME, karate training hasn't changed. I finally became "fully matriculated" later in life, but did some dojo-hopping as a child and into my teens in the 80's and 90's. If there are differences, I haven't seen any.

With boxing, things like speed, accuracy, stamina, power, etc are trained on DAY ONE. Also, maybe with the exceptions of styles like Kyokushin or MMA focused karare, karate is generally all point-matches - nothing where a KO is the main objective. That's why most traditional karateka thought Karate Combat was so innovative - most have never seen anything like it.

I don't know your situation, but I imagine that the people for whom karate would have "immediate" benefits would be those who've never thrown a punch before. Because at least they'll come out doing something they've never done before.

But for the kids who have thrown their share of punches, with less than desirable results; karate will be of little benefit to them in the short run.

Now, the kind of training that the Karate Combat fighters go though: if karate dojos in general adopted that, then we'd probably be looking at something with benefits as immediate as those obtained from boxing.


Last edited by Sailor Sindbad on Mon Jun 13, 2022 12:27 pm; edited 1 time in total
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LionsDen
Orange Belt
Orange Belt

Joined: 06 May 2022
Posts: 177


PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2022 12:39 pm    Post subject: Re: How would you convince somone to train Karate over.. Reply with quote

Sailor Sindbad wrote:
DarthPenguin wrote:
Sailor Sindbad wrote:
GS718Trek wrote:
What explanation would you offer if someone asked you which martial art they should learn for self defense or fighting? How would you explain the advantages and disadvantages of Karate over other martial arts like BJJ, Muay Thai, Boxing?


For "self defense or fighting," it depends on how immediate the need is. If it's a kid who is getting physically bullied at school, or anyone else getting physically assaulted on a regular basis for that matter, I'm only going to recommend boxing. No other martial art but boxing.

For anyone who wants to learn "self defense or fighting" for "just in case" purposes, then karate actually enters the debate.


Actually, i might disagree here from personal experience, though i think things have changed over time. I first started karate at 5 for that very reason (without going into too much detail i was picked on a lot due to being mixed race). Started mid 80s in the UK and trained 4 times a wk almost from the get go.

I actually found it very useful self defence wise when a kid: i could throw a punch with a decent amount of power and generally handle myself reasonably. Over time (and a lot of fights) i began to be targeted a lot less.

For context, before i started i would always lose - in particular this one kid always stepped in and gave me a kicking. About 3mths after starting karate i broke his nose with a punch and he never tried again. At the time i was also tiny: i didn't grow til my mid teens really so i was always a small kid

I do know though that things might have changed a lot now and karate might not be as good self defence art for kids anymore, based on how it is currently taught.

Just my 10p worth


Yeah, but I didn't see you mention anything about experience with boxing. Walk into you nearest boxing gym, and just watch a whole session. You'll see the difference immediately.

IME, karate training hasn't changed. I finally became "fully matriculated" later in life, but did some dojo-hopping as a child and into my teens in the 80's and 90's. If there are differences, I haven't seen any.

With boxing, things like speed, accuracy, stamina, power, etc are trained on DAY ONE. Also, maybe with the exceptions of styles like Kyokushin or MMA focused karare, karate is generally all point-matches - nothing where a KO is the main objective. That's why most traditional karateka thought Karate Combat was so innovative - most have never seen anything like it.

I don't know your situation, but I imagine that the people for whom karate would have "immediate" benefits would be those who've never thrown a punch before. Because at least they'll come out doing something they've never done before.

But for the kids who have thrown their share of punches, with less than desirable results; karate will be of little benefit to them in the short run.

Now, the kind of training that the Karate Combat fighters go though: if karate dojos in general adopted that, then we'd probably be looking at something with benefits as immediate as those obtained from boxing.
looking at the way local point tournaments were run and rules enforced tells me that things have changed.
There might have always been rules against ‘excessive contact’ but how people define excessive contact seems to have really changed over the years.
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DarthPenguin
Blue Belt
Blue Belt

Joined: 03 Dec 2021
Posts: 304
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Styles: Shotokan, Judo, BJJ

PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2022 2:44 am    Post subject: Re: How would you convince somone to train Karate over.. Reply with quote

Sailor Sindbad wrote:
DarthPenguin wrote:
Sailor Sindbad wrote:
GS718Trek wrote:
What explanation would you offer if someone asked you which martial art they should learn for self defense or fighting? How would you explain the advantages and disadvantages of Karate over other martial arts like BJJ, Muay Thai, Boxing?


For "self defense or fighting," it depends on how immediate the need is. If it's a kid who is getting physically bullied at school, or anyone else getting physically assaulted on a regular basis for that matter, I'm only going to recommend boxing. No other martial art but boxing.

For anyone who wants to learn "self defense or fighting" for "just in case" purposes, then karate actually enters the debate.


Actually, i might disagree here from personal experience, though i think things have changed over time. I first started karate at 5 for that very reason (without going into too much detail i was picked on a lot due to being mixed race). Started mid 80s in the UK and trained 4 times a wk almost from the get go.

I actually found it very useful self defence wise when a kid: i could throw a punch with a decent amount of power and generally handle myself reasonably. Over time (and a lot of fights) i began to be targeted a lot less.

For context, before i started i would always lose - in particular this one kid always stepped in and gave me a kicking. About 3mths after starting karate i broke his nose with a punch and he never tried again. At the time i was also tiny: i didn't grow til my mid teens really so i was always a small kid

I do know though that things might have changed a lot now and karate might not be as good self defence art for kids anymore, based on how it is currently taught.

Just my 10p worth


Yeah, but I didn't see you mention anything about experience with boxing. Walk into you nearest boxing gym, and just watch a whole session. You'll see the difference immediately.

IME, karate training hasn't changed. I finally became "fully matriculated" later in life, but did some dojo-hopping as a child and into my teens in the 80's and 90's. If there are differences, I haven't seen any.

With boxing, things like speed, accuracy, stamina, power, etc are trained on DAY ONE. Also, maybe with the exceptions of styles like Kyokushin or MMA focused karare, karate is generally all point-matches - nothing where a KO is the main objective. That's why most traditional karateka thought Karate Combat was so innovative - most have never seen anything like it.

I don't know your situation, but I imagine that the people for whom karate would have "immediate" benefits would be those who've never thrown a punch before. Because at least they'll come out doing something they've never done before.

But for the kids who have thrown their share of punches, with less than desirable results; karate will be of little benefit to them in the short run.

Now, the kind of training that the Karate Combat fighters go though: if karate dojos in general adopted that, then we'd probably be looking at something with benefits as immediate as those obtained from boxing.


I don't disagree, though i have never trained straight boxing so i can't say what was/wasn't taught to kids in that era.

If i had to pick styles to teach a kid nowadays to learn to defend themselves i would personally pick Muay Thai (as they are tough as nails) to learn to punch, kick, knee, elbow etc and Sambo (since they would learn the throws of judo with a little more time on groundwork, leg locks specifically). Once they were old enough i would then see if they added in BJJ to flesh out their ground game and add in the submissions not taught in Sambo etc.

A kid who has learnt Thai and Sambo for a bit should be ok to defence themselves i think from most situations a kid would get in. For my own son (who is 5) he is attending Judo and karate and has been since he was 4. When he is a little older i'll see if he wants to branch out.
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DarthPenguin
Blue Belt
Blue Belt

Joined: 03 Dec 2021
Posts: 304
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Styles: Shotokan, Judo, BJJ

PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2022 2:47 am    Post subject: Re: How would you convince somone to train Karate over.. Reply with quote

LionsDen wrote:
Sailor Sindbad wrote:
DarthPenguin wrote:
Sailor Sindbad wrote:
GS718Trek wrote:
What explanation would you offer if someone asked you which martial art they should learn for self defense or fighting? How would you explain the advantages and disadvantages of Karate over other martial arts like BJJ, Muay Thai, Boxing?


For "self defense or fighting," it depends on how immediate the need is. If it's a kid who is getting physically bullied at school, or anyone else getting physically assaulted on a regular basis for that matter, I'm only going to recommend boxing. No other martial art but boxing.

For anyone who wants to learn "self defense or fighting" for "just in case" purposes, then karate actually enters the debate.


Actually, i might disagree here from personal experience, though i think things have changed over time. I first started karate at 5 for that very reason (without going into too much detail i was picked on a lot due to being mixed race). Started mid 80s in the UK and trained 4 times a wk almost from the get go.

I actually found it very useful self defence wise when a kid: i could throw a punch with a decent amount of power and generally handle myself reasonably. Over time (and a lot of fights) i began to be targeted a lot less.

For context, before i started i would always lose - in particular this one kid always stepped in and gave me a kicking. About 3mths after starting karate i broke his nose with a punch and he never tried again. At the time i was also tiny: i didn't grow til my mid teens really so i was always a small kid

I do know though that things might have changed a lot now and karate might not be as good self defence art for kids anymore, based on how it is currently taught.

Just my 10p worth


Yeah, but I didn't see you mention anything about experience with boxing. Walk into you nearest boxing gym, and just watch a whole session. You'll see the difference immediately.

IME, karate training hasn't changed. I finally became "fully matriculated" later in life, but did some dojo-hopping as a child and into my teens in the 80's and 90's. If there are differences, I haven't seen any.

With boxing, things like speed, accuracy, stamina, power, etc are trained on DAY ONE. Also, maybe with the exceptions of styles like Kyokushin or MMA focused karare, karate is generally all point-matches - nothing where a KO is the main objective. That's why most traditional karateka thought Karate Combat was so innovative - most have never seen anything like it.

I don't know your situation, but I imagine that the people for whom karate would have "immediate" benefits would be those who've never thrown a punch before. Because at least they'll come out doing something they've never done before.

But for the kids who have thrown their share of punches, with less than desirable results; karate will be of little benefit to them in the short run.

Now, the kind of training that the Karate Combat fighters go though: if karate dojos in general adopted that, then we'd probably be looking at something with benefits as immediate as those obtained from boxing.
looking at the way local point tournaments were run and rules enforced tells me that things have changed.
There might have always been rules against ‘excessive contact’ but how people define excessive contact seems to have really changed over the years.


Having relatively recently returned to karate after a LONG time away it is something i have noticed. My second lesson back someone told me to stop throwing high front kicks as it would be a KO and instant disqualification. That kind of thing used to be allowed - just look at some of the old school videos!
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aurik
Blue Belt
Blue Belt

Joined: 08 Nov 2016
Posts: 312
Location: Denver, CO
Styles: Shuri-Ryu, Uechi-Ryu

PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2022 10:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can’t say what a given martial art may or may not be right for someone. What I can and do is share what my style and dojo have done for me. Whenever someone asks what I think of martial arts I share my personal experiences with my sensei and his dojo. I share why I think he is an excellent instructor and talk about what value I get out of it.

I find it is a very low pressure tactic. And it works.
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GS718Trek
Orange Belt
Orange Belt

Joined: 08 Oct 2014
Posts: 152


PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2022 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I was actively training, we had new students coming to class, a lot of kids and young people who were bullied, some who had never fought before but were turned on by martial arts after watching MMA.


During kata practice, an expression of boredom could be seen. I was always approachable as a classmate so They started asking me the side questions "have your trained in TKD, Boxing?"

Because I didn't want to alienate potential training partners, I was more interested in selling Karate than the other disciplines they inquired about.
It was difficult for me to convey the benefits of what we were training and why, but I could tell they were looking for a quick fix in their eyes.

In any event, they didn't hang around for long and soon vanished.
After a time of trial and error in martial arts, I realized that most people, like myself, will figure out what works best for them out of trial and error.

It took me the same path before I eventually landed with Karate being my favorite out of the kids.
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DarthPenguin
Blue Belt
Blue Belt

Joined: 03 Dec 2021
Posts: 304
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Styles: Shotokan, Judo, BJJ

PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2022 5:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

aurik wrote:
I can’t say what a given martial art may or may not be right for someone. What I can and do is share what my style and dojo have done for me. Whenever someone asks what I think of martial arts I share my personal experiences with my sensei and his dojo. I share why I think he is an excellent instructor and talk about what value I get out of it.

I find it is a very low pressure tactic. And it works.


This seems sensible. All you can really do is talk about personal experiences and let people draw their own conclusions
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Himokiri Karate
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 13 Aug 2009
Posts: 391

Styles: Boxing, Korean Karate

PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2022 7:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sensei8 wrote:
What explanation could I ever offer that they might've not already heard before?? Any explanation could only come across like some used car salesman. No. Explanations take the back seat to experiencing.

One needs to experience what you've to offer. To experience, one's going to have to get on the floor, and proof is on the floor, not in cheap handed rigmarole.

Imho.




Many reason why karate is superior and it goes beyond and I mean BEYOND the physical aspect. For starters, karate has a healthier culture and it fosters a community that fosters healthy attitudes. The gi, the belt, the Japanese and Korean commands (TSD) serve as a way to deter bad disrespectful characters because chances are, they are not going to be in to wearing a gi, bowing and immersing themselves in the tradition because they feel like they are above it.



I say this as a person who spent almost a decade in boxing and MMA gyms. Its not just the art but the culture that is included in the art form. That and in some boxing gyms, they set beginners up to be punching bag for experienced fighters. Real bad stuff can go down. A boxing gym I used to go to made the local news because the trainer has intense and irrational anger problems. Sadly he is not the first guy and not even the worse guy and yet he made it to local news and its on YouTube.



Problem with MMA is, they focus on wrestlers or other stylist who mastered their art at some other place. MMA gym is also very expensive, the best fighters come from a singular style that they mastered and an MMA gym is just a glorified fitness. In the mid 2000s, the talk was that in the next decade, every fighter would not even learn any style, they would all be saying "mma from the first day baby"

Meanwhile welcome to 2022 and yet, we have a kickboxers and wrestlers as champions for most division. One guy is a jujitsu guy and tons of contenders are also wrestlers and strikers.


Truth be told, Karate is very powerful but you have to be able to truly immerse yourself in its subtle nature. Most folks want to just hit the pad and get a good sweat. It wont work like that, the form, the posture, the mind, the focus, the concentration and freedom from thoughts is the hallmark towards mastery of any style that is truly worth learning.


Ultimately speaking, karate is about mastery and self perfection as well as learning how to fight. Its not about money, fame and glory. These three aspects can create a toxic environment and if someone makes it from the gym and others do not, it can foster a sense of envy and jealousy. Seen it way too many times. I think it is wonderful to learn the art of boxing but I truly believe its best to avoid the gym culture and learn it in a private setting with a qualified trainer. While with karate, I feel comfortable with the people. Even if a bad character makes it in karate, they still have to respect the tradition and so they cannot act the way they want and so even they muzzle themselves just to stay in the culture.
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Tyler
Yellow Belt
Yellow Belt

Joined: 16 Mar 2022
Posts: 53
Location: Narita,Japan
Styles: Shorin-Ryu, Kobudo

PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2022 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Himokiri Karate wrote:
sensei8 wrote:
What explanation could I ever offer that they might've not already heard before?? Any explanation could only come across like some used car salesman. No. Explanations take the back seat to experiencing.

One needs to experience what you've to offer. To experience, one's going to have to get on the floor, and proof is on the floor, not in cheap handed rigmarole.

Imho.




Many reason why karate is superior and it goes beyond and I mean BEYOND
the physical aspect. For starters, karate has a healthier culture and it fosters a community that fosters healthy attitudes. The gi, the belt, the Japanese and Korean commands (TSD) serve as a way to deter bad disrespectful characters because chances are, they are not going to be in to wearing a gi, bowing and immersing themselves in the tradition because they feel like they are above it.



I say this as a person who spent almost a decade in boxing and MMA gyms. Its not just the art but the culture that is included in the art form. That and in some boxing gyms, they set beginners up to be punching bag for experienced fighters. Real bad stuff can go down. A boxing gym I used to go to made the local news because the trainer has intense and irrational anger problems. Sadly he is not the first guy and not even the worse guy and yet he made it to local news and its on YouTube.



Problem with MMA is, they focus on wrestlers or other stylist who mastered their art at some other place. MMA gym is also very expensive, the best fighters come from a singular style that they mastered and an MMA gym is just a glorified fitness. In the mid 2000s, the talk was that in the next decade, every fighter would not even learn any style, they would all be saying "mma from the first day baby"

Meanwhile welcome to 2022 and yet, we have a kickboxers and wrestlers as champions for most division. One guy is a jujitsu guy and tons of contenders are also wrestlers and strikers.


Truth be told, Karate is very powerful but you have to be able to truly immerse yourself in its subtle nature. Most folks want to just hit the pad and get a good sweat. It wont work like that, the form, the posture, the mind, the focus, the concentration and freedom from thoughts is the hallmark towards mastery of any style that is truly worth learning.


Ultimately speaking, karate is about mastery and self perfection as well as learning how to fight. Its not about money, fame and glory. These three aspects can create a toxic environment and if someone makes it from the gym and others do not, it can foster a sense of envy and jealousy. Seen it way too many times. I think it is wonderful to learn the art of boxing but I truly believe its best to avoid the gym culture and learn it in a private setting with a qualified trainer. While with karate, I feel comfortable with the people. Even if a bad character makes it in karate, they still have to respect the tradition and so they cannot act the way they want and so even they muzzle themselves just to stay in the culture.


Himokiri,
Very well said indeed
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Himokiri Karate
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 13 Aug 2009
Posts: 391

Styles: Boxing, Korean Karate

PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2022 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tyler wrote:
Himokiri Karate wrote:
sensei8 wrote:
What explanation could I ever offer that they might've not already heard before?? Any explanation could only come across like some used car salesman. No. Explanations take the back seat to experiencing.

One needs to experience what you've to offer. To experience, one's going to have to get on the floor, and proof is on the floor, not in cheap handed rigmarole.

Imho.




Many reason why karate is superior and it goes beyond and I mean BEYOND
the physical aspect. For starters, karate has a healthier culture and it fosters a community that fosters healthy attitudes. The gi, the belt, the Japanese and Korean commands (TSD) serve as a way to deter bad disrespectful characters because chances are, they are not going to be in to wearing a gi, bowing and immersing themselves in the tradition because they feel like they are above it.



I say this as a person who spent almost a decade in boxing and MMA gyms. Its not just the art but the culture that is included in the art form. That and in some boxing gyms, they set beginners up to be punching bag for experienced fighters. Real bad stuff can go down. A boxing gym I used to go to made the local news because the trainer has intense and irrational anger problems. Sadly he is not the first guy and not even the worse guy and yet he made it to local news and its on YouTube.



Problem with MMA is, they focus on wrestlers or other stylist who mastered their art at some other place. MMA gym is also very expensive, the best fighters come from a singular style that they mastered and an MMA gym is just a glorified fitness. In the mid 2000s, the talk was that in the next decade, every fighter would not even learn any style, they would all be saying "mma from the first day baby"

Meanwhile welcome to 2022 and yet, we have a kickboxers and wrestlers as champions for most division. One guy is a jujitsu guy and tons of contenders are also wrestlers and strikers.


Truth be told, Karate is very powerful but you have to be able to truly immerse yourself in its subtle nature. Most folks want to just hit the pad and get a good sweat. It wont work like that, the form, the posture, the mind, the focus, the concentration and freedom from thoughts is the hallmark towards mastery of any style that is truly worth learning.


Ultimately speaking, karate is about mastery and self perfection as well as learning how to fight. Its not about money, fame and glory. These three aspects can create a toxic environment and if someone makes it from the gym and others do not, it can foster a sense of envy and jealousy. Seen it way too many times. I think it is wonderful to learn the art of boxing but I truly believe its best to avoid the gym culture and learn it in a private setting with a qualified trainer. While with karate, I feel comfortable with the people. Even if a bad character makes it in karate, they still have to respect the tradition and so they cannot act the way they want and so even they muzzle themselves just to stay in the culture.


Himokiri,
Very well said indeed


Thanks Tyler,


This is something that is very near and dear to my heart. I love my boxing trainer. When he is not in town, I do not even bother with boxing. To me, its not just the art but the master that teaches the style of art. Others have coerced and dangled many types of promises such as " if you turn pro with me, I can take you to places" and I have heard other lies and dishonesty.


Karate is so pure, free from gambling, bets, fixes and other underhanded tricks that serves corrupt individual. I have always if the white gi represents purity of someone's passion and principle. But to be fair, I find that boxing is an extremely incredible martial arts. The right type of boxing coach can take your breath away with the magnificently subtle techniques and shifts that produce incredible results.


Problem lies within the sporting culture that attracts problems. It is a shame because boxing in its purest artistic form has so much to offer that extends beyond the naked eye. I believe boxing skills learned from the perspective of karate can produce incredible results.
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