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RBzx
White Belt
White Belt

Joined: 26 Jun 2022
Posts: 2


PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2022 10:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Karate is so pure, free from gambling, bets, fixes and other underhanded tricks that serves corrupt individual. I have always if the white gi represents purity of someone's passion and principle. But to be fair, I find that boxing is an extremely incredible martial arts. The right type of boxing coach can take your breath away with the magnificently subtle techniques and shifts that produce incredible results.


You are roughly right if you compare karate to boxing, but one word comes to mind: "Mcdojo."
When teachers dilute the art for financial gain, the purity is gone.
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Tyler
Yellow Belt
Yellow Belt

Joined: 16 Mar 2022
Posts: 53
Location: Narita,Japan
Styles: Shorin-Ryu, Kobudo

PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RBzx wrote:
Quote:
Karate is so pure, free from gambling, bets, fixes and other underhanded tricks that serves corrupt individual. I have always if the white gi represents purity of someone's passion and principle. But to be fair, I find that boxing is an extremely incredible martial arts. The right type of boxing coach can take your breath away with the magnificently subtle techniques and shifts that produce incredible results.


You are roughly right if you compare karate to boxing, but one word comes to mind: "Mcdojo."
When teachers dilute the art for financial gain, the purity is gone.


RBzx,
Welcome to the Forum!

Yes, You are right in The States they are so many McDojos and I find many of them don't learn the philosophy nor respect in true Karate.

Some of the Mc Senseis have their Students excercizing most of the class or just trying to keep them in the Mcdojo as long as possible to collect their money!

In Japan i pay $10 per month and that is only for the Air con. My Sensei does it for the love of Karate and is glad to have a foreigner who would like to learn.
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Himokiri Karate
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 13 Aug 2009
Posts: 391

Styles: Boxing, Korean Karate

PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2022 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RBzx wrote:
Quote:
Karate is so pure, free from gambling, bets, fixes and other underhanded tricks that serves corrupt individual. I have always if the white gi represents purity of someone's passion and principle. But to be fair, I find that boxing is an extremely incredible martial arts. The right type of boxing coach can take your breath away with the magnificently subtle techniques and shifts that produce incredible results.


You are roughly right if you compare karate to boxing, but one word comes to mind: "Mcdojo."
When teachers dilute the art for financial gain, the purity is gone.


If I may partially defend McDojo is with me saying that:


While I agree that McDojo is very bad, some McDojos have a decent fight team that is seperate from the recreational programs.

1.The McDojo training is safe and at times can be a great place to cultivate coordination and athletic movement.


2.Some McDojos do have redeeming quality like decent training but the business side is unethical like stringent contracts.


3.McDojo may instill confidence that allows the student to do well in life because the training is less effective and more of a metaphor for better life.

Overall I agree that a McDojo is bad and in the way of the world, sometimes it is a necessary evil because life in modern times is hard in terms of making ends meet and putting food on the table.

But for me, a ruthless boxing or combat sports gym is unforgivable. You can get hurt, develop bad habits like becoming a mindless head hunter due to brawling and unorganized training. Cherry picking coaches that focus on talented boxers and neglect passionate students who actually are loyal and dedicated all make these places a far worse place than a McDojo and the damage at times maybe forever.
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LionsDen
Orange Belt
Orange Belt

Joined: 06 May 2022
Posts: 177


PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2022 10:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Himokiri Karate wrote:
Tyler wrote:
Himokiri Karate wrote:
sensei8 wrote:
What explanation could I ever offer that they might've not already heard before?? Any explanation could only come across like some used car salesman. No. Explanations take the back seat to experiencing.

One needs to experience what you've to offer. To experience, one's going to have to get on the floor, and proof is on the floor, not in cheap handed rigmarole.

Imho.




Many reason why karate is superior and it goes beyond and I mean BEYOND
the physical aspect. For starters, karate has a healthier culture and it fosters a community that fosters healthy attitudes. The gi, the belt, the Japanese and Korean commands (TSD) serve as a way to deter bad disrespectful characters because chances are, they are not going to be in to wearing a gi, bowing and immersing themselves in the tradition because they feel like they are above it.



I say this as a person who spent almost a decade in boxing and MMA gyms. Its not just the art but the culture that is included in the art form. That and in some boxing gyms, they set beginners up to be punching bag for experienced fighters. Real bad stuff can go down. A boxing gym I used to go to made the local news because the trainer has intense and irrational anger problems. Sadly he is not the first guy and not even the worse guy and yet he made it to local news and its on YouTube.



Problem with MMA is, they focus on wrestlers or other stylist who mastered their art at some other place. MMA gym is also very expensive, the best fighters come from a singular style that they mastered and an MMA gym is just a glorified fitness. In the mid 2000s, the talk was that in the next decade, every fighter would not even learn any style, they would all be saying "mma from the first day baby"

Meanwhile welcome to 2022 and yet, we have a kickboxers and wrestlers as champions for most division. One guy is a jujitsu guy and tons of contenders are also wrestlers and strikers.


Truth be told, Karate is very powerful but you have to be able to truly immerse yourself in its subtle nature. Most folks want to just hit the pad and get a good sweat. It wont work like that, the form, the posture, the mind, the focus, the concentration and freedom from thoughts is the hallmark towards mastery of any style that is truly worth learning.


Ultimately speaking, karate is about mastery and self perfection as well as learning how to fight. Its not about money, fame and glory. These three aspects can create a toxic environment and if someone makes it from the gym and others do not, it can foster a sense of envy and jealousy. Seen it way too many times. I think it is wonderful to learn the art of boxing but I truly believe its best to avoid the gym culture and learn it in a private setting with a qualified trainer. While with karate, I feel comfortable with the people. Even if a bad character makes it in karate, they still have to respect the tradition and so they cannot act the way they want and so even they muzzle themselves just to stay in the culture.


Himokiri,
Very well said indeed


Thanks Tyler,


This is something that is very near and dear to my heart. I love my boxing trainer. When he is not in town, I do not even bother with boxing. To me, its not just the art but the master that teaches the style of art. Others have coerced and dangled many types of promises such as " if you turn pro with me, I can take you to places" and I have heard other lies and dishonesty.


Karate is so pure, free from gambling, bets, fixes and other underhanded tricks that serves corrupt individual. I have always if the white gi represents purity of someone's passion and principle. But to be fair, I find that boxing is an extremely incredible martial arts. The right type of boxing coach can take your breath away with the magnificently subtle techniques and shifts that produce incredible results.


Problem lies within the sporting culture that attracts problems. It is a shame because boxing in its purest artistic form has so much to offer that extends beyond the naked eye. I believe boxing skills learned from the perspective of karate can produce incredible results.
....this whole 'pure' thing is just creepy to me. seems like a blind worship.

karate is plagued by all sorts of corruption, from mcdojos, to pedophiles, and other sexual predators/creepers.

there's nothing about karate that makes it inherently more 'pure' or less corrupt than any other martial art or combat sport. as for betting i'm sure there's plenty of betting going on for the big national competitions (relatively speaking) and if not, there sure as heck would be if karate as a sport ever became truly popular, and there's probably about as much betting on karate combat as MMA again relative.
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Zaine
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 2016
Location: Dallas, TX
Styles: Matsumura-Seito, Shobayashi-Ryu, Shudokan, Long Fist, American Street Karate, Southern Mantis, HEMA

PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2022 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LionsDen wrote:
there's nothing about karate that makes it inherently more 'pure' or less corrupt than any other martial art or combat sport. as for betting i'm sure there's plenty of betting going on for the big national competitions (relatively speaking) and if not, there sure as heck would be if karate as a sport ever became truly popular, and there's probably about as much betting on karate combat as MMA again relative.


There was certainly betting going on during the 2020 Olympics. I would be surprised that there wasn't betting going on at World's and other large events that, while not popular in the public eye, does have no small number of watchers. I assume that, when it comes to betting, the rules follow the format of Rule 1 for the internet: If it exists, someone is betting on it. Add to this newer formats of Karate media like KarateCombat which betters would be more familiar with the spirit of, and I think it's safe to say that there is betting.

Himokiri Karate wrote:
Karate is so pure


I disagree here as a philosophical matter. I don't believe that things, in and of themselves, have value. We create and assign value to things and we tend to be incredibly biased when it comes to our favorite things. Value only matters insofar as as those that find value in it. Many people would say that Karate does not have any value at all, or negative value (I've met plenty of martial artists who take this position).

We tend to view things like martial arts in terms of pure when it is closely related to the source material. We often ask questions about lineage to pre-judge the quality of the practitioner. We ask questions like "How related is it to Shuri, Naha, or Tomari-Te?" or "Was your teacher taught by someone taught by Ginchin Funakoshi?" We obsess over purity but in all reality a system can be as pure as we want it to be but if it isn't effective at what it is trying to do then it needs to change. In sense of purity, also, one could argue that modern karate is not "pure" at all. It isn't the karate of the past, it's blended and morphed. It changed with the world and it should have. It's a good thing that this has happened. It's good that Itosu created a program less rigorous so that schools would take it up in their P.E. programs. It's good that Funakoshi changed it to appeal to mainlanders wanting to learn Karate. As we learn more about physical health and as the world changes, we should change.
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LionsDen
Orange Belt
Orange Belt

Joined: 06 May 2022
Posts: 177


PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2022 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zaine wrote:
LionsDen wrote:
there's nothing about karate that makes it inherently more 'pure' or less corrupt than any other martial art or combat sport. as for betting i'm sure there's plenty of betting going on for the big national competitions (relatively speaking) and if not, there sure as heck would be if karate as a sport ever became truly popular, and there's probably about as much betting on karate combat as MMA again relative.


There was certainly betting going on during the 2020 Olympics. I would be surprised that there wasn't betting going on at World's and other large events that, while not popular in the public eye, does have no small number of watchers. I assume that, when it comes to betting, the rules follow the format of Rule 1 for the internet: If it exists, someone is betting on it. Add to this newer formats of Karate media like KarateCombat which betters would be more familiar with the spirit of, and I think it's safe to say that there is betting.

Himokiri Karate wrote:
Karate is so pure


I disagree here as a philosophical matter. I don't believe that things, in and of themselves, have value. We create and assign value to things and we tend to be incredibly biased when it comes to our favorite things. Value only matters insofar as as those that find value in it. Many people would say that Karate does not have any value at all, or negative value (I've met plenty of martial artists who take this position).

We tend to view things like martial arts in terms of pure when it is closely related to the source material. We often ask questions about lineage to pre-judge the quality of the practitioner. We ask questions like "How related is it to Shuri, Naha, or Tomari-Te?" or "Was your teacher taught by someone taught by Ginchin Funakoshi?" We obsess over purity but in all reality a system can be as pure as we want it to be but if it isn't effective at what it is trying to do then it needs to change. In sense of purity, also, one could argue that modern karate is not "pure" at all. It isn't the karate of the past, it's blended and morphed. It changed with the world and it should have. It's a good thing that this has happened. It's good that Itosu created a program less rigorous so that schools would take it up in their P.E. programs. It's good that Funakoshi changed it to appeal to mainlanders wanting to learn Karate. As we learn more about physical health and as the world changes, we should change.
i think you’re talking about a different kind of purity than he was. He was talking about a moral purity.

And honestly the karate kid franchise is a perfect example of how karate is impure, and it has been for a long time.
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Zaine
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 2016
Location: Dallas, TX
Styles: Matsumura-Seito, Shobayashi-Ryu, Shudokan, Long Fist, American Street Karate, Southern Mantis, HEMA

PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2022 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe in moral purity even less, but that's a discussion for a different website. If that's the case, however, my stance doesn't really change. We can just ignore the final paragraph.
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Himokiri Karate
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 13 Aug 2009
Posts: 391

Styles: Boxing, Korean Karate

PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2022 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LionsDen wrote:
Himokiri Karate wrote:
Tyler wrote:
Himokiri Karate wrote:
sensei8 wrote:
What explanation could I ever offer that they might've not already heard before?? Any explanation could only come across like some used car salesman. No. Explanations take the back seat to experiencing.

One needs to experience what you've to offer. To experience, one's going to have to get on the floor, and proof is on the floor, not in cheap handed rigmarole.

Imho.




Many reason why karate is superior and it goes beyond and I mean BEYOND
the physical aspect. For starters, karate has a healthier culture and it fosters a community that fosters healthy attitudes. The gi, the belt, the Japanese and Korean commands (TSD) serve as a way to deter bad disrespectful characters because chances are, they are not going to be in to wearing a gi, bowing and immersing themselves in the tradition because they feel like they are above it.



I say this as a person who spent almost a decade in boxing and MMA gyms. Its not just the art but the culture that is included in the art form. That and in some boxing gyms, they set beginners up to be punching bag for experienced fighters. Real bad stuff can go down. A boxing gym I used to go to made the local news because the trainer has intense and irrational anger problems. Sadly he is not the first guy and not even the worse guy and yet he made it to local news and its on YouTube.



Problem with MMA is, they focus on wrestlers or other stylist who mastered their art at some other place. MMA gym is also very expensive, the best fighters come from a singular style that they mastered and an MMA gym is just a glorified fitness. In the mid 2000s, the talk was that in the next decade, every fighter would not even learn any style, they would all be saying "mma from the first day baby"

Meanwhile welcome to 2022 and yet, we have a kickboxers and wrestlers as champions for most division. One guy is a jujitsu guy and tons of contenders are also wrestlers and strikers.


Truth be told, Karate is very powerful but you have to be able to truly immerse yourself in its subtle nature. Most folks want to just hit the pad and get a good sweat. It wont work like that, the form, the posture, the mind, the focus, the concentration and freedom from thoughts is the hallmark towards mastery of any style that is truly worth learning.


Ultimately speaking, karate is about mastery and self perfection as well as learning how to fight. Its not about money, fame and glory. These three aspects can create a toxic environment and if someone makes it from the gym and others do not, it can foster a sense of envy and jealousy. Seen it way too many times. I think it is wonderful to learn the art of boxing but I truly believe its best to avoid the gym culture and learn it in a private setting with a qualified trainer. While with karate, I feel comfortable with the people. Even if a bad character makes it in karate, they still have to respect the tradition and so they cannot act the way they want and so even they muzzle themselves just to stay in the culture.


Himokiri,
Very well said indeed


Thanks Tyler,


This is something that is very near and dear to my heart. I love my boxing trainer. When he is not in town, I do not even bother with boxing. To me, its not just the art but the master that teaches the style of art. Others have coerced and dangled many types of promises such as " if you turn pro with me, I can take you to places" and I have heard other lies and dishonesty.


Karate is so pure, free from gambling, bets, fixes and other underhanded tricks that serves corrupt individual. I have always if the white gi represents purity of someone's passion and principle. But to be fair, I find that boxing is an extremely incredible martial arts. The right type of boxing coach can take your breath away with the magnificently subtle techniques and shifts that produce incredible results.


Problem lies within the sporting culture that attracts problems. It is a shame because boxing in its purest artistic form has so much to offer that extends beyond the naked eye. I believe boxing skills learned from the perspective of karate can produce incredible results.
....this whole 'pure' thing is just creepy to me. seems like a blind worship.

karate is plagued by all sorts of corruption, from mcdojos, to pedophiles, and other sexual predators/creepers.

there's nothing about karate that makes it inherently more 'pure' or less corrupt than any other martial art or combat sport. as for betting i'm sure there's plenty of betting going on for the big national competitions (relatively speaking) and if not, there sure as heck would be if karate as a sport ever became truly popular, and there's probably about as much betting on karate combat as MMA again relative.


You are misrepresenting my post again.


I already mentioned that the art of boxing is incredible. Techniques are just that, they are techniques. You are using the word "if" and yes "if" there is betting, if there is money then yes, karate will be just another combat sport filled with corruption. If you read my quote, I made sure to mention that the art and the technique of a style is not what is on trial.


But with karate, you get an equal shake of getting good. In boxing gyms, the pupils with the talent get training time. Everyone else is cannon fodder. This was my point.

Also creepers and predators can occupy any and every space. From martial arts to tennis or video game culture.

Zaine wrote:
LionsDen wrote:
there's nothing about karate that makes it inherently more 'pure' or less corrupt than any other martial art or combat sport. as for betting i'm sure there's plenty of betting going on for the big national competitions (relatively speaking) and if not, there sure as heck would be if karate as a sport ever became truly popular, and there's probably about as much betting on karate combat as MMA again relative.


There was certainly betting going on during the 2020 Olympics. I would be surprised that there wasn't betting going on at World's and other large events that, while not popular in the public eye, does have no small number of watchers. I assume that, when it comes to betting, the rules follow the format of Rule 1 for the internet: If it exists, someone is betting on it. Add to this newer formats of Karate media like KarateCombat which betters would be more familiar with the spirit of, and I think it's safe to say that there is betting.

Himokiri Karate wrote:
Karate is so pure


I disagree here as a philosophical matter. I don't believe that things, in and of themselves, have value. We create and assign value to things and we tend to be incredibly biased when it comes to our favorite things. Value only matters insofar as as those that find value in it. Many people would say that Karate does not have any value at all, or negative value (I've met plenty of martial artists who take this position).

We tend to view things like martial arts in terms of pure when it is closely related to the source material. We often ask questions about lineage to pre-judge the quality of the practitioner. We ask questions like "How related is it to Shuri, Naha, or Tomari-Te?" or "Was your teacher taught by someone taught by Ginchin Funakoshi?" We obsess over purity but in all reality a system can be as pure as we want it to be but if it isn't effective at what it is trying to do then it needs to change. In sense of purity, also, one could argue that modern karate is not "pure" at all. It isn't the karate of the past, it's blended and morphed. It changed with the world and it should have. It's a good thing that this has happened. It's good that Itosu created a program less rigorous so that schools would take it up in their P.E. programs. It's good that Funakoshi changed it to appeal to mainlanders wanting to learn Karate. As we learn more about physical health and as the world changes, we should change.



Do not listen to lionsden, that is not what I meant!


By pure meaning that every student has a chance to get good!


In boxing gyms, if you do not show talent, you are just a cannon fodder designed to take a beating. These trainers are called cherry pickers. Boxing has no classes, you show up to the gym like its a weight lifting gym and you do your own thing and if a trainer takes a liking to you, then he will teach you. Otherwise, your money goes towards using the facility and it may not come with instruction and mentoring.

In karate, everyone receives instruction!
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Zaine
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 2016
Location: Dallas, TX
Styles: Matsumura-Seito, Shobayashi-Ryu, Shudokan, Long Fist, American Street Karate, Southern Mantis, HEMA

PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2022 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see what you're getting at now. I do not have much experience with boxing gyms, though we did have a boxing coach at the MMA gym we ended up renting out who, when he had off time, would come over and teach us some stuff. It was a lot fun and informs a lot about the way that I fight now.

What I can speak towards is the idea that, broadly and with exceptions, traditional martial arts does tend to have the ability to focus on the individuals with more than others. I hypothesize her that this is largely due to the difference in competitive scenes of Boxing and Martial Arts. Boxing is far more popular than even something like MMA. The top 5 grossing PPV fights for boxing averaged 3,106,000 PPV buys whereas the top 5 UFC averaged 1,710,000 PPV. While MMA is not something like Karate, it is closer, and remains a good, if rough and imperfect, comparison. The point being, if a boxing coach has a person they're training who seems more than good, that they have whatever it factor that indicates that they can go the distance, then it also means that the coach could achieve renown. Renown means more requests to train people. It means larger cuts of prize money. It means that they're set for life and those students who are "merely talented" they few as fodder for the betterment of their prized students. Or perhaps they see someone who can be a coach one day and they keep them around to teach them that. Again, I have little to no familiarity with how boxing gyms work as a whole, so I'm basing this hypothetical off of your analysis and boxing movies.

Karate, on the other hand, does not have a clear path (though extremely difficult, requiring an absurd amount of dedication, and even then, often luck-based) to fame and fortune. No competitor gets rich off of their success at World's, or similar events. While fans of fighting, and I would wager and good number of non-fight fans, know who Floyd Mayweather is, and to a lesser extent Connor McGregor, I imagine that most would be hard pressed to tell you a single name of someone competing in KarateCombat. Even dojos that do focus heavily on tournament results and are successful won't really find the success that Boxing would. Because of that, and because it is better to have a high density of people who are placing at tournaments over than one person, Karate has more time to focus on more people than Boxing does, which may only ever see one person in a gym who could "go the distance" and that's if they're lucky.
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 15921
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2022 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

At the risk of repeating myself, if I have to convince any prospective student to train, Karate or not, then imho, that prospective student isn't worthy to ever be on the floor in the first place. I'll not convince any student, prospective or not.



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