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darksoul
Purple Belt
Joined: 19 Jul 2012
Posts: 548
Location: Montréal, QC, Canada
Styles: Shaolin Kempo
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 Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 7:14 am Post subject: |
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I'm with everyone here - wait until black to cross train.
Also, from what I've heard, ATA is pretty... "louche." I actually can't think of the English word for that at the moment. 
Anyway, I've heard they are the Double Quarter Pounder with Cheese of McDojo's.
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Shodan - Shaolin Kempo
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whitematt
Yellow Belt
Joined: 23 Sep 2003
Posts: 75
Location: Iowa
Styles: ATA Taekwondo
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| Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 2:49 pm Post subject: |
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| darksoul wrote: |
I'm with everyone here - wait until black to cross train.
Also, from what I've heard, ATA is pretty... "louche." I actually can't think of the English word for that at the moment.
Anyway, I've heard they are the Double Quarter Pounder with Cheese of McDojo's. |
Heard and experienced are two different things. |
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chiliphil1
Orange Belt
Joined: 29 Oct 2011
Posts: 225
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| Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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I agree with the rest of the posters. Don't cross train at yellow Belt, it will do nothing but confused you and harm your development in both styles, further I think the fact that the ATA has a camo belt is a good indicator that they may in fact be a mcdojo.
In my personal opinion which is not meant to offend anyone, I don't have a ton of good opinions on TKD as it is, it seems to flashy, commercialized tobme. And there is too much of a sporting emphasis. This however is the opinion of someone who has come to desire the spiritual aspect of martial arts as much as the physical.
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Black belt AFAF # 178
Tang Soo Do
8th Kyu
Matsubayashi ryu shorin ryu karate |
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hammer
Green Belt
Joined: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 370
Styles: Kyokushin, TKD
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| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 9:11 am Post subject: |
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| chiliphil1 wrote: |
| In my personal opinion which is not meant to offend anyone, I don't have a ton of good opinions on TKD as it is, it seems to flashy, commercialized to me. And there is too much of a sporting emphasis. This however is the opinion of someone who has come to desire the spiritual aspect of martial arts as much as the physical. |
While I can understand the source of your opinion, I would not confuse the TKD schools you have seen to TKD as a martial art. I've been a part of a traditional club for close to 13 years so I have never personally seen TKD as being commercial or flashy.
Agree with others that say to wait to cross train. Changing techniques is challenging enough...to do so before you have even mastered the basics in one art (which is what being a 1st Dan means IMO) would not help you in either style. |
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chiliphil1
Orange Belt
Joined: 29 Oct 2011
Posts: 225
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| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 2:27 pm Post subject: |
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| hammer wrote: |
| chiliphil1 wrote: |
| In my personal opinion which is not meant to offend anyone, I don't have a ton of good opinions on TKD as it is, it seems to flashy, commercialized to me. And there is too much of a sporting emphasis. This however is the opinion of someone who has come to desire the spiritual aspect of martial arts as much as the physical. |
While I can understand the source of your opinion, I would not confuse the TKD schools you have seen to TKD as a martial art. I've been a part of a traditional club for close to 13 years so I have never personally seen TKD as being commercial or flashy. |
Agree, and I apologize for my comment. I in fact did condemn the entire art based on what I have seen. I have a book on TKD that I have browsed through, and even it seems commercial to me, which I think is what I am basing my opinion on. I suppose that my vision has been diluted by the " typical" modern TKD image, which is sport so I without considering the original intent of the art, nor thinking of traditional dojangs condemned the art of TKD in itself.
As stated previously, I will most likely never train in TKD as I prefer to go with a more spiritual style, and the fact that I have already trained in TSD seems to me pointless to persue TKD since there are so many similarities, so I will continue in either a chinese or japanese style, once I get my finances in good enough shape to afford the training fees, and have the time to get in there, for now I continue to work on the things that I do know, and try to learn some things from books that are out there.
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Black belt AFAF # 178
Tang Soo Do
8th Kyu
Matsubayashi ryu shorin ryu karate |
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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| Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 8:53 am Post subject: |
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| whitematt wrote: |
| darksoul wrote: |
I'm with everyone here - wait until black to cross train.
Also, from what I've heard, ATA is pretty... "louche." I actually can't think of the English word for that at the moment.
Anyway, I've heard they are the Double Quarter Pounder with Cheese of McDojo's. |
Heard and experienced are two different things. |
The ATA has a lot of good things in the style. I'm an ATA black belt myself, and I can't recall any bad training that I have received. The ATA gets the McDojo reputation because it is a big organization, and it isn't afraid of being a big organization. Yes, its true that they have some kids programs that they cater to. Its also true that the ATA isn't afraid to try to implement new thoughts and ideas into their curriculum to get students interested early on, and to allow black belts to specialize in later.
Also, since the mere size of the ATA is what it is, you see a greater disparage in skill levels. I was never a tournament winner, or a top ten contender in the ATA. I'm not much of a tourney competitor at all, for that fact. But I don't think I was ever a bad representation of what the ATA is, or for any of the instructors I had in the ATA.
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www.haysgym.com
http://www.sunyis.com/
www.aikidoofnorthwestkansas.com |
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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| Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:00 am Post subject: |
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| chiliphil1 wrote: |
| I agree with the rest of the posters. Don't cross train at yellow Belt, it will do nothing but confused you and harm your development in both styles, |
This isn't necessarily the case. There isn't any reason one couldn't start cross training in a grappling style early on, especially since the two styles are totally different in focus. In fact, the sooner the cross training starts in a case like this, the better, in my opinion.
| chiliphil1 wrote: |
| further I think the fact that the ATA has a camo belt is a good indicator that they may in fact be a mcdojo. |
You are going to base your opinion of a school on the color of one of the belts? H. U. Lee wanted a 9 belt system for the ATA, based on some Korean traditional and philosophical views, so he had to get another color into his system. He went with camo, and it fits in with his view of how the colors changed going up in the tree growth philosophy he had of the belt system.
White
Orange
Yellow
Camo
Green
Purple
Blue
Brown
Red
Black (with red/black as a recommended black belt).
What color would you have thrown in there?
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http://www.sunyis.com/
www.aikidoofnorthwestkansas.com |
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DWx
Black Belt
Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 6455
Location: UK
Styles: Tae Kwon Do & Yang family Tai Chi
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| Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 1:28 pm Post subject: |
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| bushido_man96 wrote: |
| chiliphil1 wrote: |
| further I think the fact that the ATA has a camo belt is a good indicator that they may in fact be a mcdojo. |
You are going to base your opinion of a school on the color of one of the belts? H. U. Lee wanted a 9 belt system for the ATA, based on some Korean traditional and philosophical views, so he had to get another color into his system. He went with camo, and it fits in with his view of how the colors changed going up in the tree growth philosophy he had of the belt system.
White
Orange
Yellow
Camo
Green
Purple
Blue
Brown
Red
Black (with red/black as a recommended black belt).
What color would you have thrown in there? |
Yeah although it wouldn't be my personal choice for a belt colour, it's as good as any. You can't just label the whole system bad because of the colour of one of the belts. IMHO it's no worse than using striped belts.
| bushido_man96 wrote: |
The ATA has a lot of good things in the style. I'm an ATA black belt myself, and I can't recall any bad training that I have received. The ATA gets the McDojo reputation because it is a big organization, and it isn't afraid of being a big organization. Yes, its true that they have some kids programs that they cater to. Its also true that the ATA isn't afraid to try to implement new thoughts and ideas into their curriculum to get students interested early on, and to allow black belts to specialize in later.
Also, since the mere size of the ATA is what it is, you see a greater disparage in skill levels. I was never a tournament winner, or a top ten contender in the ATA. I'm not much of a tourney competitor at all, for that fact. But I don't think I was ever a bad representation of what the ATA is, or for any of the instructors I had in the ATA. |
With respect, I don't think ATA just gets a bad rep for its size. There are plenty of other big TKD orgs out there. I mean the two biggest WTF and ITF have largely good reps in the world of TKD. ATA tends to get its bad rep because, at least to outsiders, the quality of teaching does appear to be poor. Looking on YouTube there are tons of poor ATA videos on there and you really have to hunt for something good.
IMHO part of the problem is that they also promotes the flashier side to TKD and they also do XMA. Even if we look at their recent Nationals which should show us the best of the ATA: http://youtu.be/fkVk1xHi9VA a lot of it is martial junk. Amazing athleticism and acrobatics but an effective martial art? Not really. In that video, the only thing personally that I think has any value to the style as a fighting art is the traditional forms. The rest was a lot of junk. That's ok if you want to learn that but don't market it as martial arts.
Not getting at ATA either but it also does seem to be one of those organisations which dishes out blackbelts to ridiculously young children. I know other organisations do this too but combined with the above it does lead you to the conclusion that it is a McDojo. I mean not every school will be like that but those it's hard for the good schools to get noticed when you have all this noise.
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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| Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 1:02 pm Post subject: |
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I don't agree with the ATA's black belt policies, but thats not for me to deal with.
As far as the XMA goes, the ATA is not the only MA out there spouting XMA. Its just another branch of what the ATA offers to its students, should they want to do it. And it is not the only thing done at their world championships. They do forms divisions, sparring divisions, etc.
Also, their "world" tournament is a two-day event, maybe more, now. One day is reserved for the top ten champion competitions for the forms, weapons, sparring, etc. The next day is open to all ATA competitors. So, its not just the cream of the crop, its also the mediocre and poor competition showing up. When you have that range of demographics, then you'll notice differences.
I'm not going to say that the ATA doesn't have any bad schools. They are out there. But there are a lot more good ATA schools than there are bad ones. And they are doing things to improve, as well, especially at the higher ranked black belt testings. I'm sure the big whigs at the ATA know what image of them is out there. They may care, and they may not. But I'm saying that the organization, as a whole, gets too much flack, and not enough credit for the positive things that it provides.
One of my favorite pet peeves is the "belts don't matter" stuff that's prattled often. I guess it does matter, though, if its a camo belt. It must be a "fake" belt, I guess.
My last gasp here is that I have met some great MAist that have come out of the ATA. I've had some great instructors in the ATA that taught me the importance of technique and instructing well. I have a former instructor that is a 4th degree, very good, one time world champ runner up in sparring, and a great self-defense instructor who uses skills learned through the ATA every day in his job as a police officer. I also know an ATA stylist who competed very well in Olympic style competitions. There are lots of good ATA instructors out there, and if you can get a good one, you are in no way getting a bad MA career.
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on the post.
