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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16424
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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 Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 10:58 am Post subject: I've Got You...No, I've Got You...No...! Control Illusion... |
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I didn't know exactly where to place this, so, I hope that Self Defense is where this topic should've been placed, Nonetheless, I want to bring the following questions to get your opinions.
Scenario #1:
I've grasped my opponents right wrist with my right hand! WHO'S GOT CONTROL?
Scenario #2:
I've grasped my opponents shirt collar with my right hand! WHO'S GOT CONTROL?
Scenario #3:
I've grasped both of my opponents wrists with both of my hands! WHO'S GOT CONTROL?
Scenario #4:
I've grasped my opponents shirt with both of my hands! WHO'S GOT CONTROL?
One might think that I've got the control for that moment and for that scenario. Well, let's now switch roles with my opponent...WHO'S GOT CONTROL NOW?
Many parameters reveal themselves when we play..."What If!?!?" Allow me, even if for fun, look at this from my point of view. Control of either person doesn't have to be for any extended duration; for a mere moment to until heck freezes over. I'm not caring as to the duration of the control because ANYTIME IS TOO LONG!
If I grab one of your wrists with one of my hands, as in one of the aboved scenarios; you HAVE CONTROL! If you grasp one of my wrists with one of your hands; I've CONTROL! So on and so forth from scenario to scenario. Get the point thus far?
So...here we go! I've just seized/grasped one of your wrists with both of my hands...YOU HAVE CONTROL! HOW? You STILL have BOTH of your HANDS FREE! I've NO FREE HANDS! I've just "grabbed" myself and you've done nothing at this moment. To defend myself from your counter-attack/escape, I'm going to have to FREE one or both of my hands...NOW YOU'VE JUST ESCAPED FROM ME! So much for me having control!
Control's an illusion, temporary, at best! How one properly reacts might be as to how one looks at this. For how long depends on...whatever...the man in the moon!?! Having a mind like the moon and mind like the water favors the one who's as cool as a cucumber!
Next time you grab someone or someone grabs you, ask yourself this one question...
WHO'S GOT WHO?
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**Proof is on the floor!!! |
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JusticeZero
Black Belt
Joined: 02 Apr 2005
Posts: 2166
Location: AK
Styles: Capoeira Angola
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| Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 11:35 am Post subject: |
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All four of those read as "Nobody" to me; control really only seems to materialize when it is exerted. Potential control isn't. I was looking at parries/blocks yesterday with a student, since i'm basically killing time waiting for their upper body strength to improve a bit; I was pointing out that if you guide a linear strike away from your body it protects you, but - if they don't yank their limb back away from you - as long as you can keep pressure and contact on the limb, you can pull and redirect the rest of their body. (And this is why I tell you to pull your hand/foot back so firmly after benção!) The control there really only exists for as long as the controlling movement lasts.
More advanced students are familiar with how much control you exert over your opponent by doing things like raising your hands to show your unprotected belly, or leaving your foot out unweighted and unguarded.
So really, 'control' is a terribly ephemeral concept, and one that probably isn't finely nuanced enough to express everything one might want to express.
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"Anything worth doing is worth doing badly." - Baleia |
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JoiH
Yellow Belt
Joined: 13 Apr 2009
Posts: 51
Location: Idaho, USA
Styles: Shotokan
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| Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 10:45 pm Post subject: Re: I've Got You...No, I've Got You...No...! Control Illusio |
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| sensei8 wrote: |
| Control's an illusion, temporary, at best! |
Very well stated.
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Joi H.
"Victory does not come from physical capacity- it comes from an indomitable will"- Gandhi |
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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| Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 10:37 am Post subject: |
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You bring out some good points there, Bob. But, I tend to be a bit simpler of a man...I feel that the person grabbing has a degree of control of whatever it is they have grabbed. Now, that doesn't mean that the person being grabbed doesn't have options. Like you said, the person that has been grabbed may have a free hand or two, or two free feet. However, is said person grabbing me is a skilled Wrestler, Judoka, Aikidoka, or BJJer, I may very well be screwed, regardless of having a free hand or two.
Just playing a bit of devil's advocate...
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http://www.sunyis.com/
www.aikidoofnorthwestkansas.com |
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Gi-Unit
White Belt
Joined: 25 Apr 2009
Posts: 6
Location: High Point, NC
Styles: MMA, Tae Kwon Do, Isshinryu, BJJ
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| Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 8:57 pm Post subject: |
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| I would say that these are all neutral positions because no one as the advantage in any of these scenarios. Both the attacker and the defender have several offensive options for any of the these situations. |
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tallgeese
Black Belt
Joined: 04 May 2008
Posts: 6879
Location: McHenry County, IL
Styles: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Bujin Bugei Jutsu, Gokei Ryu Kempo Jutsu, MMA, Shootfighting, boxing, kickboxing, JKD, Pekiti Tersia Kali
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| Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 11:22 pm Post subject: |
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To my mind, none are really controlling.
I feel that one can acheive a level of control during a ocnflict. HOwever, simly grabbing any part of the other guy won't get it done. Control occurs when you've made it impossible, or at least extremely difficult for the bad guy to continue the fight.
This could be with him either unconcious from strikes, chokes or the like. Or he could be debilitated via joint destruction of large proportions. Likewise, he might be cranked into a submissive posture tht dosn't allow him to present a threat. That's control, all else is a stepping to the goal. |
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16424
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 9:11 am Post subject: |
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I'd rather have my hands free then to have one or both engaged. You grab me, well, I've got two free hands for Tuite; I like my chances. But again, control is an illusion at its core, imho.
| Quote: |
| So really, 'control' is a terribly ephemeral concept, and one that probably isn't finely nuanced enough to express everything one might want to express. |
I'm glad to see that we see eye to eye.
Nobody, attacker, and/or defender; all have control for THAT moment until the parameters are changed by whomever, but, then it's ever changing. The summation of 'why' is to the summation of 'because'!
Wwwhhhhhhhheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee! The Zen Master said to a hot-dog vendor when asked what he'd like..."I'll have one with everything!"
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**Proof is on the floor!!! |
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bushido_man96
KF Sensei
Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 30188
Location: Hays, KS
Styles: Taekwondo, Combat Hapkido, Aikido, GRACIE, Police Krav Maga, SPEAR
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| Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2009 1:32 am Post subject: |
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Hot dogs, did someone say hot dogs???....oh, sorry, back on track here...
I would add that it might depend on what the grab is accomplishing. If one is breaking balance with it, then I think at that point, a degree of control is achieved.
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sensei8
KF Sensei
Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 16424
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]
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| Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 10:24 am Post subject: |
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| I would add that it might depend on what the grab is accomplishing. If one is breaking balance with it, then I think at that point, a degree of control is achieved. |
Isn't the world of possibilities just wonderful. Someone's negitive is someone else's positive, and vise versa. As in Chess, whomever controls the center of the board for most of the game, usually wins, although, make one mistake and it's capitalized against and....WHAM...a hidden checkmate has you sitting there going...."What happened? Where did that come from!" It doesn't take much to have the tables turned against you...does it?
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on the post.
