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The Pred
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 26 Jun 2003
Posts: 385

Styles: Goju Ryu

PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 8:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh as far as student B is concerned. As the old saying goes not everyone can teach. So if student B is just a student and has no need of ever opening a school. Then does it really matter pass black belt?
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 15768
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Pred wrote:
Oh as far as student B is concerned. As the old saying goes not everyone can teach. So if student B is just a student and has no need of ever opening a school. Then does it really matter pass black belt?

By "pass black belt", I'm assuming that you mean, pass Shodan, and if so, in that regards, I suppose that it doesn't! And it's just me, but, knowing that there's more to learn beyond Shodan, and forget about rank, I surely want to learn more...and more...and more...



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Nidan Melbourne
KF Sempai
KF Sempai

Joined: 21 Aug 2013
Posts: 2300
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Styles: Goju-Ryu, BJJ, Balintawak Arnis

PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 8:23 pm    Post subject: Re: I want to test vs. My master tells me when to test Reply with quote

IcemanSK wrote:
sensei8 wrote:
IcemanSK wrote:
I've heard this discussed in the locker rooms & in forums for a long time. Student says, "I'm ready to test. Why won't my master see that?" or the other..."My master just told me that I'm going to test. But I'm not ready, don't want to, don't need to, don't think I'm worthy, etc."

At the end of the day, a student isn't going to test with their instructor's permission. (Not without a huge strain the relationship). And it's also unlikely that an instructor will test &/or confer rank on a student against the will of a student who really doesn't want the rank.

But this issue is a frequent, often unspoken dance between master & student. Sometimes it's all within the individual student himself/herself. They either feel the deserve the next rank or that they cannot reach the next level.

How would you deal with student A? A long time active student who feels they deserve to test.

And student B? A long time active student that does not want to test and avoids it for longer than anyone would expect.


To student 'A': Shut up and train!!

To student 'B': Shut up and train!!

Student 'A'...just who promoted that student to a position that he/she doesn't possess??

Student 'B'...I will not force a student to test! Test...don't test...it's all good to me!! And when student 'B' is ready, I'll be here...whether it's sooner or later!!





For student A, my answer is similar. They don't dictate when they test.

For student B, it depends on their "why" & their rank. If they are holding back to have a chance to win tournaments, we'd be having a chat about ethics. If they just don't want to, it depends on their present rank & for how long they are there. If someone is 4th Dan. Runs their own school under me. But hasn't tested for 20 years, we'd be having a chat because at that point, that student is affecting his/her student's ability to promote, as well. Just an example.


If using your example of a 4th Dan haven't graded for 20 years, why would they have not gone and attempted a grading in that time? I know many 4th and 5th Dans that haven't graded for that length of time because they are content at that rank and have no desire to be promoted to a much higher grade.

What if that 4th Dan who hasn't graded has continually trained under their instructor and other instructors during that time, has the knowledge and expertise of say an 8th Dan but just hasn't been given that rank and the ranks in between? and he has graded students to 4th dan.

Because IMHO rank is just a piece of clothing that keeps your pants up. And at the end of the day students acknowledge that knowledge is the main thing.
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 15768
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 1:05 pm    Post subject: Re: I want to test vs. My master tells me when to test Reply with quote

Nidan Melbourne wrote:
IcemanSK wrote:
sensei8 wrote:
IcemanSK wrote:
I've heard this discussed in the locker rooms & in forums for a long time. Student says, "I'm ready to test. Why won't my master see that?" or the other..."My master just told me that I'm going to test. But I'm not ready, don't want to, don't need to, don't think I'm worthy, etc."

At the end of the day, a student isn't going to test with their instructor's permission. (Not without a huge strain the relationship). And it's also unlikely that an instructor will test &/or confer rank on a student against the will of a student who really doesn't want the rank.

But this issue is a frequent, often unspoken dance between master & student. Sometimes it's all within the individual student himself/herself. They either feel the deserve the next rank or that they cannot reach the next level.

How would you deal with student A? A long time active student who feels they deserve to test.

And student B? A long time active student that does not want to test and avoids it for longer than anyone would expect.


To student 'A': Shut up and train!!

To student 'B': Shut up and train!!

Student 'A'...just who promoted that student to a position that he/she doesn't possess??

Student 'B'...I will not force a student to test! Test...don't test...it's all good to me!! And when student 'B' is ready, I'll be here...whether it's sooner or later!!





For student A, my answer is similar. They don't dictate when they test.

For student B, it depends on their "why" & their rank. If they are holding back to have a chance to win tournaments, we'd be having a chat about ethics. If they just don't want to, it depends on their present rank & for how long they are there. If someone is 4th Dan. Runs their own school under me. But hasn't tested for 20 years, we'd be having a chat because at that point, that student is affecting his/her student's ability to promote, as well. Just an example.


If using your example of a 4th Dan haven't graded for 20 years, why would they have not gone and attempted a grading in that time? I know many 4th and 5th Dans that haven't graded for that length of time because they are content at that rank and have no desire to be promoted to a much higher grade.

What if that 4th Dan who hasn't graded has continually trained under their instructor and other instructors during that time, has the knowledge and expertise of say an 8th Dan but just hasn't been given that rank and the ranks in between? and he has graded students to 4th dan.

Because IMHO rank is just a piece of clothing that keeps your pants up. And at the end of the day students acknowledge that knowledge is the main thing.

I know about a Nidan that hasn't tested in close to 30 years...and this Nidan is quite content with that; I can admire and respect that. This Nidan has the knowledge and experience of a Dan rank way much higher than current rank.

This Nidan has no desire to ever test! Why? A sign of respect to his Sensei who passed away shortly after this Nidan received his Nidan!!



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The Pred
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 26 Jun 2003
Posts: 385

Styles: Goju Ryu

PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 1:59 pm    Post subject: Re: I want to test vs. My master tells me when to test Reply with quote

sensei8 wrote:
Nidan Melbourne wrote:
IcemanSK wrote:
sensei8 wrote:
IcemanSK wrote:
I've heard this discussed in the locker rooms & in forums for a long time. Student says, "I'm ready to test. Why won't my master see that?" or the other..."My master just told me that I'm going to test. But I'm not ready, don't want to, don't need to, don't think I'm worthy, etc."

At the end of the day, a student isn't going to test with their instructor's permission. (Not without a huge strain the relationship). And it's also unlikely that an instructor will test &/or confer rank on a student against the will of a student who really doesn't want the rank.

But this issue is a frequent, often unspoken dance between master & student. Sometimes it's all within the individual student himself/herself. They either feel the deserve the next rank or that they cannot reach the next level.

How would you deal with student A? A long time active student who feels they deserve to test.

And student B? A long time active student that does not want to test and avoids it for longer than anyone would expect.


To student 'A': Shut up and train!!

To student 'B': Shut up and train!!

Student 'A'...just who promoted that student to a position that he/she doesn't possess??

Student 'B'...I will not force a student to test! Test...don't test...it's all good to me!! And when student 'B' is ready, I'll be here...whether it's sooner or later!!





For student A, my answer is similar. They don't dictate when they test.

For student B, it depends on their "why" & their rank. If they are holding back to have a chance to win tournaments, we'd be having a chat about ethics. If they just don't want to, it depends on their present rank & for how long they are there. If someone is 4th Dan. Runs their own school under me. But hasn't tested for 20 years, we'd be having a chat because at that point, that student is affecting his/her student's ability to promote, as well. Just an example.


If using your example of a 4th Dan haven't graded for 20 years, why would they have not gone and attempted a grading in that time? I know many 4th and 5th Dans that haven't graded for that length of time because they are content at that rank and have no desire to be promoted to a much higher grade.

What if that 4th Dan who hasn't graded has continually trained under their instructor and other instructors during that time, has the knowledge and expertise of say an 8th Dan but just hasn't been given that rank and the ranks in between? and he has graded students to 4th dan.

Because IMHO rank is just a piece of clothing that keeps your pants up. And at the end of the day students acknowledge that knowledge is the main thing.

I know about a Nidan that hasn't tested in close to 30 years...and this Nidan is quite content with that; I can admire and respect that. This Nidan has the knowledge and experience of a Dan rank way much higher than current rank.

This Nidan has no desire to ever test! Why? A sign of respect to his Sensei who passed away shortly after this Nidan received his Nidan!!




Very admirable indeed. I'm sorry you were forced against your will due to politics.
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Spartacus Maximus
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 01 Jun 2014
Posts: 1876

Styles: Shorin ryu

PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 4:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the same position as the nidan previously mentioned, there are quite a few who would have done the same thing. It is not such an unusual thing and mostly happens when a student has trained for a long time and has a close dedication and intense loyalty to the sensei.

Grading and rank cease to be relevant when one is still learning and still trains as a lifelong habit. If one respects and accepts the intructor's teachings, it should be no problem accepting whatever grade said instructor believes the student deserves with appropriate gratitude. Otherwise why train with that instructor?
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JR 137
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 10 May 2015
Posts: 2442
Location: In the dojo
Styles: Seido Juku

PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 8:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spartacus Maximus wrote:
In the same position as the nidan previously mentioned, there are quite a few who would have done the same thing. It is not such an unusual thing and mostly happens when a student has trained for a long time and has a close dedication and intense loyalty to the sensei.

Grading and rank cease to be relevant when one is still learning and still trains as a lifelong habit. If one respects and accepts the intructor's teachings, it should be no problem accepting whatever grade said instructor believes the student deserves with appropriate gratitude. Otherwise why train with that instructor?


Very good post.

I understand people wanting to wear the same belt given to them by someone special, such as a deceased instructor, but but not promoting seems a bit odd to me.

People (like me) think rank in and of itself doesn't really mean much. But if it doesn't mean much, why the resistance to promote? Seems like a bit of an oxymoron to me. I mean, if you didn't really care about being a nidan, why care if someone (you respect) wants to promote you to sandan?

If it's truly the belt itself you hold closely (as sentimental), wear the same belt. I like how Seido keeps the same black belt and just adds emdroidered stripes when a student promotes rather than a new belt every time (other than ceremonial/special occasion belts).
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IcemanSK
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Posts: 1084
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Styles: Taekwondo Chung Do Kwan

PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 8:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The exact thing happened to Fumio Demura. His Sensei told him that if he didn't test, he'd have students that outranked him. So after some prodding, Demura Sensei, against his own desires, finally gave in and tested...thusly...earned a much higher rank. Demura Sensei forever and a day was a Godan...until his Sensei urged.


[/quote]

I complete appreciate a student, say a 2nd Dan, who never wants to teach & just wants to train. But for folks like Demura Sensei whose students are teaching & want their students to advance in rank, it becomes a necessary "evil." If one is training & seeking to improve one's ability to teach as they learn. There is nothing wrong with that. High rank need not equate to an over-inflated sense of self. It can also be argued that, for some, not testing can also be an ego boost, as well. Neither testing nor not testing is a guarantee that one's ego is in check.
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 15768
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 2:41 pm    Post subject: Re: I want to test vs. My master tells me when to test Reply with quote

The Pred wrote:
sensei8 wrote:
Nidan Melbourne wrote:
IcemanSK wrote:
sensei8 wrote:
IcemanSK wrote:
I've heard this discussed in the locker rooms & in forums for a long time. Student says, "I'm ready to test. Why won't my master see that?" or the other..."My master just told me that I'm going to test. But I'm not ready, don't want to, don't need to, don't think I'm worthy, etc."

At the end of the day, a student isn't going to test with their instructor's permission. (Not without a huge strain the relationship). And it's also unlikely that an instructor will test &/or confer rank on a student against the will of a student who really doesn't want the rank.

But this issue is a frequent, often unspoken dance between master & student. Sometimes it's all within the individual student himself/herself. They either feel the deserve the next rank or that they cannot reach the next level.

How would you deal with student A? A long time active student who feels they deserve to test.

And student B? A long time active student that does not want to test and avoids it for longer than anyone would expect.


To student 'A': Shut up and train!!

To student 'B': Shut up and train!!

Student 'A'...just who promoted that student to a position that he/she doesn't possess??

Student 'B'...I will not force a student to test! Test...don't test...it's all good to me!! And when student 'B' is ready, I'll be here...whether it's sooner or later!!





For student A, my answer is similar. They don't dictate when they test.

For student B, it depends on their "why" & their rank. If they are holding back to have a chance to win tournaments, we'd be having a chat about ethics. If they just don't want to, it depends on their present rank & for how long they are there. If someone is 4th Dan. Runs their own school under me. But hasn't tested for 20 years, we'd be having a chat because at that point, that student is affecting his/her student's ability to promote, as well. Just an example.


If using your example of a 4th Dan haven't graded for 20 years, why would they have not gone and attempted a grading in that time? I know many 4th and 5th Dans that haven't graded for that length of time because they are content at that rank and have no desire to be promoted to a much higher grade.

What if that 4th Dan who hasn't graded has continually trained under their instructor and other instructors during that time, has the knowledge and expertise of say an 8th Dan but just hasn't been given that rank and the ranks in between? and he has graded students to 4th dan.

Because IMHO rank is just a piece of clothing that keeps your pants up. And at the end of the day students acknowledge that knowledge is the main thing.

I know about a Nidan that hasn't tested in close to 30 years...and this Nidan is quite content with that; I can admire and respect that. This Nidan has the knowledge and experience of a Dan rank way much higher than current rank.

This Nidan has no desire to ever test! Why? A sign of respect to his Sensei who passed away shortly after this Nidan received his Nidan!!




Very admirable indeed. I'm sorry you were forced against your will due to politics.

To the bold type above...

Is this question directed to me?



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The Pred
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 26 Jun 2003
Posts: 385

Styles: Goju Ryu

PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 2:58 pm    Post subject: Re: I want to test vs. My master tells me when to test Reply with quote

sensei8 wrote:
The Pred wrote:
sensei8 wrote:
Nidan Melbourne wrote:
IcemanSK wrote:
sensei8 wrote:
IcemanSK wrote:
I've heard this discussed in the locker rooms & in forums for a long time. Student says, "I'm ready to test. Why won't my master see that?" or the other..."My master just told me that I'm going to test. But I'm not ready, don't want to, don't need to, don't think I'm worthy, etc."

At the end of the day, a student isn't going to test with their instructor's permission. (Not without a huge strain the relationship). And it's also unlikely that an instructor will test &/or confer rank on a student against the will of a student who really doesn't want the rank.

But this issue is a frequent, often unspoken dance between master & student. Sometimes it's all within the individual student himself/herself. They either feel the deserve the next rank or that they cannot reach the next level.

How would you deal with student A? A long time active student who feels they deserve to test.

And student B? A long time active student that does not want to test and avoids it for longer than anyone would expect.


To student 'A': Shut up and train!!

To student 'B': Shut up and train!!

Student 'A'...just who promoted that student to a position that he/she doesn't possess??

Student 'B'...I will not force a student to test! Test...don't test...it's all good to me!! And when student 'B' is ready, I'll be here...whether it's sooner or later!!





For student A, my answer is similar. They don't dictate when they test.

For student B, it depends on their "why" & their rank. If they are holding back to have a chance to win tournaments, we'd be having a chat about ethics. If they just don't want to, it depends on their present rank & for how long they are there. If someone is 4th Dan. Runs their own school under me. But hasn't tested for 20 years, we'd be having a chat because at that point, that student is affecting his/her student's ability to promote, as well. Just an example.


If using your example of a 4th Dan haven't graded for 20 years, why would they have not gone and attempted a grading in that time? I know many 4th and 5th Dans that haven't graded for that length of time because they are content at that rank and have no desire to be promoted to a much higher grade.

What if that 4th Dan who hasn't graded has continually trained under their instructor and other instructors during that time, has the knowledge and expertise of say an 8th Dan but just hasn't been given that rank and the ranks in between? and he has graded students to 4th dan.

Because IMHO rank is just a piece of clothing that keeps your pants up. And at the end of the day students acknowledge that knowledge is the main thing.

I know about a Nidan that hasn't tested in close to 30 years...and this Nidan is quite content with that; I can admire and respect that. This Nidan has the knowledge and experience of a Dan rank way much higher than current rank.

This Nidan has no desire to ever test! Why? A sign of respect to his Sensei who passed away shortly after this Nidan received his Nidan!!




Very admirable indeed. I'm sorry you were forced against your will due to politics.

To the bold type above...

Is this question directed to me?




Yes, didn't you say you were forced to get Kudan in due part to being Kaicho
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