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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 15768
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 12:51 pm    Post subject: Re: I want to test vs. My master tells me when to test Reply with quote

The Pred wrote:
sensei8 wrote:
The Pred wrote:
sensei8 wrote:
Nidan Melbourne wrote:
IcemanSK wrote:
sensei8 wrote:
IcemanSK wrote:
I've heard this discussed in the locker rooms & in forums for a long time. Student says, "I'm ready to test. Why won't my master see that?" or the other..."My master just told me that I'm going to test. But I'm not ready, don't want to, don't need to, don't think I'm worthy, etc."

At the end of the day, a student isn't going to test with their instructor's permission. (Not without a huge strain the relationship). And it's also unlikely that an instructor will test &/or confer rank on a student against the will of a student who really doesn't want the rank.

But this issue is a frequent, often unspoken dance between master & student. Sometimes it's all within the individual student himself/herself. They either feel the deserve the next rank or that they cannot reach the next level.

How would you deal with student A? A long time active student who feels they deserve to test.

And student B? A long time active student that does not want to test and avoids it for longer than anyone would expect.


To student 'A': Shut up and train!!

To student 'B': Shut up and train!!

Student 'A'...just who promoted that student to a position that he/she doesn't possess??

Student 'B'...I will not force a student to test! Test...don't test...it's all good to me!! And when student 'B' is ready, I'll be here...whether it's sooner or later!!





For student A, my answer is similar. They don't dictate when they test.

For student B, it depends on their "why" & their rank. If they are holding back to have a chance to win tournaments, we'd be having a chat about ethics. If they just don't want to, it depends on their present rank & for how long they are there. If someone is 4th Dan. Runs their own school under me. But hasn't tested for 20 years, we'd be having a chat because at that point, that student is affecting his/her student's ability to promote, as well. Just an example.


If using your example of a 4th Dan haven't graded for 20 years, why would they have not gone and attempted a grading in that time? I know many 4th and 5th Dans that haven't graded for that length of time because they are content at that rank and have no desire to be promoted to a much higher grade.

What if that 4th Dan who hasn't graded has continually trained under their instructor and other instructors during that time, has the knowledge and expertise of say an 8th Dan but just hasn't been given that rank and the ranks in between? and he has graded students to 4th dan.

Because IMHO rank is just a piece of clothing that keeps your pants up. And at the end of the day students acknowledge that knowledge is the main thing.

I know about a Nidan that hasn't tested in close to 30 years...and this Nidan is quite content with that; I can admire and respect that. This Nidan has the knowledge and experience of a Dan rank way much higher than current rank.

This Nidan has no desire to ever test! Why? A sign of respect to his Sensei who passed away shortly after this Nidan received his Nidan!!




Very admirable indeed. I'm sorry you were forced against your will due to politics.

To the bold type above...

Is this question directed to me?




Yes, didn't you say you were forced to get Kudan in due part to being Kaicho

Thanks, The Pred!!

Forced...that's a strong word, but, I suppose that that's an accurate statement!! I hate the things that lead up to it, and that's one of the reasons as to why I hate my Kudan with a passion!!



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Montana
Red Belt
Red Belt

Joined: 18 Apr 2007
Posts: 827
Location: Formerly Kalispell, Montana, now Spokane, WA
Styles: Shorin Ryu Matsumura Kenpo & Kobudo

PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2016 2:14 pm    Post subject: Re: I want to test vs. My master tells me when to test Reply with quote

sensei8 wrote:
The Pred wrote:
sensei8 wrote:
The Pred wrote:
sensei8 wrote:
Nidan Melbourne wrote:
IcemanSK wrote:
sensei8 wrote:
IcemanSK wrote:
I've heard this discussed in the locker rooms & in forums for a long time. Student says, "I'm ready to test. Why won't my master see that?" or the other..."My master just told me that I'm going to test. But I'm not ready, don't want to, don't need to, don't think I'm worthy, etc."

At the end of the day, a student isn't going to test with their instructor's permission. (Not without a huge strain the relationship). And it's also unlikely that an instructor will test &/or confer rank on a student against the will of a student who really doesn't want the rank.

But this issue is a frequent, often unspoken dance between master & student. Sometimes it's all within the individual student himself/herself. They either feel the deserve the next rank or that they cannot reach the next level.

How would you deal with student A? A long time active student who feels they deserve to test.

And student B? A long time active student that does not want to test and avoids it for longer than anyone would expect.


To student 'A': Shut up and train!!

To student 'B': Shut up and train!!

Student 'A'...just who promoted that student to a position that he/she doesn't possess??

Student 'B'...I will not force a student to test! Test...don't test...it's all good to me!! And when student 'B' is ready, I'll be here...whether it's sooner or later!!





For student A, my answer is similar. They don't dictate when they test.

For student B, it depends on their "why" & their rank. If they are holding back to have a chance to win tournaments, we'd be having a chat about ethics. If they just don't want to, it depends on their present rank & for how long they are there. If someone is 4th Dan. Runs their own school under me. But hasn't tested for 20 years, we'd be having a chat because at that point, that student is affecting his/her student's ability to promote, as well. Just an example.


If using your example of a 4th Dan haven't graded for 20 years, why would they have not gone and attempted a grading in that time? I know many 4th and 5th Dans that haven't graded for that length of time because they are content at that rank and have no desire to be promoted to a much higher grade.

What if that 4th Dan who hasn't graded has continually trained under their instructor and other instructors during that time, has the knowledge and expertise of say an 8th Dan but just hasn't been given that rank and the ranks in between? and he has graded students to 4th dan.

Because IMHO rank is just a piece of clothing that keeps your pants up. And at the end of the day students acknowledge that knowledge is the main thing.

I know about a Nidan that hasn't tested in close to 30 years...and this Nidan is quite content with that; I can admire and respect that. This Nidan has the knowledge and experience of a Dan rank way much higher than current rank.

This Nidan has no desire to ever test! Why? A sign of respect to his Sensei who passed away shortly after this Nidan received his Nidan!!




Very admirable indeed. I'm sorry you were forced against your will due to politics.

To the bold type above...

Is this question directed to me?




Yes, didn't you say you were forced to get Kudan in due part to being Kaicho

Thanks, The Pred!!

Forced...that's a strong word, but, I suppose that that's an accurate statement!! I hate the things that lead up to it, and that's one of the reasons as to why I hate my Kudan with a passion!!




Apparently quoting the ENTIRE thread with each post seems to be "the thing" for this thread, guess I will too! I hate being left out!

Anywy, I test a student when they are ready and I know they will pass..PERIOD! If they have questions as to why they aren't being tested, I will tell them. If they tell me they are ready, I will tell them why, or why not they will be tested.

End of discussion.
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Student since January 1975---4th Dan, retired due to non-martial arts related injuries.
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 15768
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2016 1:15 am    Post subject: Re: I want to test vs. My master tells me when to test Reply with quote

Montana wrote:
Apparently quoting the ENTIRE thread with each post seems to be "the thing" for this thread, guess I will too! I hate being left out!

Anywy, I test a student when they are ready and I know they will pass..PERIOD! If they have questions as to why they aren't being tested, I will tell them. If they tell me they are ready, I will tell them why, or why not they will be tested.

End of discussion.

What if they don't pass??



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https://www.gofundme.com/f/help-robert-mitcham-fight-cancer
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Hawkmoon
Pre-Black Belt
Pre-Black Belt

Joined: 17 Jun 2013
Posts: 891
Location: MK in the UK
Styles: Kyokushin

PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2016 5:56 am    Post subject: Re: I want to test vs. My master tells me when to test Reply with quote

Montana wrote:
....

Apparently quoting the ENTIRE thread with each post seems to be "the thing" for this thread, guess I will too! I hate being left out!

Anywy, I test a student when they are ready and I know they will pass..PERIOD! If they have questions as to why they aren't being tested, I will tell them. If they tell me they are ready, I will tell them why, or why not they will be tested.

End of discussion.




To the quote piece! LOL!

As to grading, when you/they are ready the chance will be present/offered/granted!
To me it is that simple!
Here I see the request to grade as a 'demand' to grade from a person of ability, hence the self belief and so I say demand. The mind set is way WAY off!
[From here If I say 'you' I mean so in a generic sense, I'm not selecting any one person in any way, its a statement to the floor(forum) a question to/for all]

For example:
So you saying you can walk up to a Master Gichin Funakoshi and expect to grade just because you asked?
and ...
Do you expect to be permitted to continue to train again in that dojo after that?

The answer: we would not just walk up and ask, and we would expect to be banned from the dojo!

Like I say the mind set if way off, ability is only part of the process, the person is(should) be looked at as a whole, seriously step back look at the question consider it this way...
Wake up Monday morning decide to take Shotokan Karate, Tuesday find a dojo, Wednesday evening train, wake up Thursday decide I are ready to grade, Friday Ask to grade, Saturday grade!
...10th dan master by the end of the month!


You will grade when you are ready not before, anything else go audition for X-Factor....!
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A human life gains luster and strength only when it is polished and tempered.
Sosai Masutatsu Oyama (1923 - 1994) Founder of Kyokushin Karate.
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The Pred
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 26 Jun 2003
Posts: 385

Styles: Goju Ryu

PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2016 7:51 am    Post subject: Re: I want to test vs. My master tells me when to test Reply with quote

[quote="sensei8"
What if they don't pass??


[/quote]

Good question, if a dojo charges for testing fees. Does that student still get charged each time? What if it takes the student 20 times? Do they keep paying each time?
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Montana
Red Belt
Red Belt

Joined: 18 Apr 2007
Posts: 827
Location: Formerly Kalispell, Montana, now Spokane, WA
Styles: Shorin Ryu Matsumura Kenpo & Kobudo

PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2016 7:58 am    Post subject: Re: I want to test vs. My master tells me when to test Reply with quote

sensei8 wrote:
Montana wrote:
Apparently quoting the ENTIRE thread with each post seems to be "the thing" for this thread, guess I will too! I hate being left out!

Anywy, I test a student when they are ready and I know they will pass..PERIOD! If they have questions as to why they aren't being tested, I will tell them. If they tell me they are ready, I will tell them why, or why not they will be tested.

End of discussion.

What if they don't pass??




There have been just a couple of times that the student didn't pass for one reason or the other, but it is rare. I changed my testing methods quite a few years ago and no longer formally test students. When they are where I want them to be now, I just hand them a certificate at the end of class and tell them to go buy the next belt..lol.
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Student since January 1975---4th Dan, retired due to non-martial arts related injuries.
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Montana
Red Belt
Red Belt

Joined: 18 Apr 2007
Posts: 827
Location: Formerly Kalispell, Montana, now Spokane, WA
Styles: Shorin Ryu Matsumura Kenpo & Kobudo

PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2016 7:59 am    Post subject: Re: I want to test vs. My master tells me when to test Reply with quote

The Pred wrote:
[quote="sensei8"
What if they don't pass??




Good question, if a dojo charges for testing fees. Does that student still get charged each time? What if it takes the student 20 times? Do they keep paying each time?[/quote]

I don't charge testing fees. I was never into it for the money.
_________________
If you don't want to stand behind our troops, please..feel free to stand in front of them.

Student since January 1975---4th Dan, retired due to non-martial arts related injuries.
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 15768
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2016 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Many years ago, I stopped charging testing fees, and shortly after that, the Hombu, under my leadership as Kaicho, ended charging testing fees as well. This action trickled down to every Shindokan dojo; no testing fees!!

Before that revelation, Shindokan dojo's, and including the Hombu, charged only ONE testing fee. If a student didn't pass their initial testing cycle, they were never ever charged a testing fee...no matter how long it takes to finally pass.



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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2016 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sensei8 wrote:
The Pred wrote:
Oh as far as student B is concerned. As the old saying goes not everyone can teach. So if student B is just a student and has no need of ever opening a school. Then does it really matter pass black belt?

By "pass black belt", I'm assuming that you mean, pass Shodan, and if so, in that regards, I suppose that it doesn't! And it's just me, but, knowing that there's more to learn beyond Shodan, and forget about rank, I surely want to learn more...and more...and more...




The Pred, I don't understand your point. Do you have Shodan teaching in your style?
We can not teach until the rank of Sandan and can not open a Dojo until the rank of Yondan.
Shodan is not considered an instructor rank. Nidan can assist but not teach on their own.

Sensei8, couldn't agree more. Always learning.
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MatsuShinshii
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 1423
Location: Kentucky
Styles: Machimura Suidi Rokudan, Ryukyu Kenpo, Kobudo, Judo

PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2016 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sensei8 wrote:
Many years ago, I stopped charging testing fees, and shortly after that, the Hombu, under my leadership as Kaicho, ended charging testing fees as well. This action trickled down to every Shindokan dojo; no testing fees!!

Before that revelation, Shindokan dojo's, and including the Hombu, charged only ONE testing fee. If a student didn't pass their initial testing cycle, they were never ever charged a testing fee...no matter how long it takes to finally pass.




I could not agree with you more. We do not charge a Deshi to test. I have not paid for a test since I started with my main art 36+ years ago.
My Shinshii always felt that you pay for his instruction but never for what you have earned. I along with all others in our organization, we still maintain this policy.
I was in disbelief when I took up a new art and got charged to test for Hachikyu. I don't have a problem with it per say because I know a lot of instructors make their living this way. But I must say I agree with my Shinshii's policy that you should not pay for something that you have earned. I don't charge for rank. The student earns it.
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