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IcemanSK
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Posts: 1084
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Styles: Taekwondo Chung Do Kwan

PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 9:09 am    Post subject: I want to test vs. My master tells me when to test Reply with quote

I've heard this discussed in the locker rooms & in forums for a long time. Student says, "I'm ready to test. Why won't my master see that?" or the other..."My master just told me that I'm going to test. But I'm not ready, don't want to, don't need to, don't think I'm worthy, etc."

At the end of the day, a student isn't going to test with their instructor's permission. (Not without a huge strain the relationship). And it's also unlikely that an instructor will test &/or confer rank on a student against the will of a student who really doesn't want the rank.

But this issue is a frequent, often unspoken dance between master & student. Sometimes it's all within the individual student himself/herself. They either feel the deserve the next rank or that they cannot reach the next level.

How would you deal with student A? A long time active student who feels they deserve to test.

And student B? A long time active student that does not want to test and avoids it for longer than anyone would expect.
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Lupin1
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 15 Dec 2009
Posts: 1636
Location: Texas USA
Styles: Isshinryu

PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is one of the best parts of just not having tests (or course then you get "when am I getting promoted!?").

Student A, if I didn't agree with them, I'd explain to them exactly what they need to work on before they're ready to test. If, after hearing my explanation, they still think they deserve to test, I'd let them. Maybe they surprise me and really, really work on what I told them between then and the test and they end up passing. Or maybe they take the test, fail, and hopefully take what I tell them more seriously before the next test.

For student B, I'd most likely let them sit where they are. Why not? If we're having competitions or something, though, and it's not fair for student B to be in their division any more because they're just way too good for that division, I'd talk to them about it and I might have to move them up against their will for competition purposes. Other than that, if they don't want to test I wouldn't make them. They could wear a purple belt for all eternity if they want. What's it really matter?
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 15712
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 1:16 pm    Post subject: Re: I want to test vs. My master tells me when to test Reply with quote

IcemanSK wrote:
I've heard this discussed in the locker rooms & in forums for a long time. Student says, "I'm ready to test. Why won't my master see that?" or the other..."My master just told me that I'm going to test. But I'm not ready, don't want to, don't need to, don't think I'm worthy, etc."

At the end of the day, a student isn't going to test with their instructor's permission. (Not without a huge strain the relationship). And it's also unlikely that an instructor will test &/or confer rank on a student against the will of a student who really doesn't want the rank.

But this issue is a frequent, often unspoken dance between master & student. Sometimes it's all within the individual student himself/herself. They either feel the deserve the next rank or that they cannot reach the next level.

How would you deal with student A? A long time active student who feels they deserve to test.

And student B? A long time active student that does not want to test and avoids it for longer than anyone would expect.


To student 'A': Shut up and train!!

To student 'B': Shut up and train!!

Student 'A'...just who promoted that student to a position that he/she doesn't possess??

Student 'B'...I will not force a student to test! Test...don't test...it's all good to me!! And when student 'B' is ready, I'll be here...whether it's sooner or later!!



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IcemanSK
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Posts: 1084
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Styles: Taekwondo Chung Do Kwan

PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 3:33 pm    Post subject: Re: I want to test vs. My master tells me when to test Reply with quote

sensei8 wrote:
IcemanSK wrote:
I've heard this discussed in the locker rooms & in forums for a long time. Student says, "I'm ready to test. Why won't my master see that?" or the other..."My master just told me that I'm going to test. But I'm not ready, don't want to, don't need to, don't think I'm worthy, etc."

At the end of the day, a student isn't going to test with their instructor's permission. (Not without a huge strain the relationship). And it's also unlikely that an instructor will test &/or confer rank on a student against the will of a student who really doesn't want the rank.

But this issue is a frequent, often unspoken dance between master & student. Sometimes it's all within the individual student himself/herself. They either feel the deserve the next rank or that they cannot reach the next level.

How would you deal with student A? A long time active student who feels they deserve to test.

And student B? A long time active student that does not want to test and avoids it for longer than anyone would expect.


To student 'A': Shut up and train!!

To student 'B': Shut up and train!!

Student 'A'...just who promoted that student to a position that he/she doesn't possess??

Student 'B'...I will not force a student to test! Test...don't test...it's all good to me!! And when student 'B' is ready, I'll be here...whether it's sooner or later!!





For student A, my answer is similar. They don't dictate when they test.

For student B, it depends on their "why" & their rank. If they are holding back to have a chance to win tournaments, we'd be having a chat about ethics. If they just don't want to, it depends on their present rank & for how long they are there. If someone is 4th Dan. Runs their own school under me. But hasn't tested for 20 years, we'd be having a chat because at that point, that student is affecting his/her student's ability to promote, as well. Just an example.
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The Pred
Green Belt
Green Belt

Joined: 26 Jun 2003
Posts: 385

Styles: Goju Ryu

PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 4:44 pm    Post subject: Re: I want to test vs. My master tells me when to test Reply with quote

IcemanSK wrote:
sensei8 wrote:
IcemanSK wrote:
I've heard this discussed in the locker rooms & in forums for a long time. Student says, "I'm ready to test. Why won't my master see that?" or the other..."My master just told me that I'm going to test. But I'm not ready, don't want to, don't need to, don't think I'm worthy, etc."

At the end of the day, a student isn't going to test with their instructor's permission. (Not without a huge strain the relationship). And it's also unlikely that an instructor will test &/or confer rank on a student against the will of a student who really doesn't want the rank.

But this issue is a frequent, often unspoken dance between master & student. Sometimes it's all within the individual student himself/herself. They either feel the deserve the next rank or that they cannot reach the next level.

How would you deal with student A? A long time active student who feels they deserve to test.

And student B? A long time active student that does not want to test and avoids it for longer than anyone would expect.


To student 'A': Shut up and train!!

To student 'B': Shut up and train!!

Student 'A'...just who promoted that student to a position that he/she doesn't possess??

Student 'B'...I will not force a student to test! Test...don't test...it's all good to me!! And when student 'B' is ready, I'll be here...whether it's sooner or later!!





For student A, my answer is similar. They don't dictate when they test.

For student B, it depends on their "why" & their rank. If they are holding back to have a chance to win tournaments, we'd be having a chat about ethics. If they just don't want to, it depends on their present rank & for how long they are there. If someone is 4th Dan. Runs their own school under me. But hasn't tested for 20 years, we'd be having a chat because at that point, that student is affecting his/her student's ability to promote, as well. Just an example.


I hear ya, if a person has a 4th dan, hypothetically you could say his students could only go up to 1st dan. Which is fine but what if some students want to open a school. Do they have to go to another school or if they have an hombu have the hombu promote them.
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 15712
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 6:28 pm    Post subject: Re: I want to test vs. My master tells me when to test Reply with quote

The Pred wrote:
IcemanSK wrote:
sensei8 wrote:
IcemanSK wrote:
I've heard this discussed in the locker rooms & in forums for a long time. Student says, "I'm ready to test. Why won't my master see that?" or the other..."My master just told me that I'm going to test. But I'm not ready, don't want to, don't need to, don't think I'm worthy, etc."

At the end of the day, a student isn't going to test with their instructor's permission. (Not without a huge strain the relationship). And it's also unlikely that an instructor will test &/or confer rank on a student against the will of a student who really doesn't want the rank.

But this issue is a frequent, often unspoken dance between master & student. Sometimes it's all within the individual student himself/herself. They either feel the deserve the next rank or that they cannot reach the next level.

How would you deal with student A? A long time active student who feels they deserve to test.

And student B? A long time active student that does not want to test and avoids it for longer than anyone would expect.


To student 'A': Shut up and train!!

To student 'B': Shut up and train!!

Student 'A'...just who promoted that student to a position that he/she doesn't possess??

Student 'B'...I will not force a student to test! Test...don't test...it's all good to me!! And when student 'B' is ready, I'll be here...whether it's sooner or later!!





For student A, my answer is similar. They don't dictate when they test.

For student B, it depends on their "why" & their rank. If they are holding back to have a chance to win tournaments, we'd be having a chat about ethics. If they just don't want to, it depends on their present rank & for how long they are there. If someone is 4th Dan. Runs their own school under me. But hasn't tested for 20 years, we'd be having a chat because at that point, that student is affecting his/her student's ability to promote, as well. Just an example.


I hear ya, if a person has a 4th dan, hypothetically you could say his students could only go up to 1st dan. Which is fine but what if some students want to open a school. Do they have to go to another school or if they have an hombu have the hombu promote them.

When I was a Yondan, I attended all of MY Testing Cycles AT the Hombu, and as a matter of fact, I attended ALL of my Testing Cycles AT the Hombu. That's because, my Sensei, was the, then, Kaicho of the Hombu when I was a Yondan, and I still attended classes at the Hombu on a regular basis, per my class schedule at my own dojo, as I had done for years and years before, and years beyond that as well; nothing in that regard, for me, changed at all. It's a tightrope walk, to be certain.

A Yondan, in Shindokan, can test their student body up to Nidan. After that, yes, they'd have to test at the Hombu, in our case.

Once any student tests for Godan, and when one reaches Godan, it is a MUST, from then on, to test at the Hombu, and no where else!



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IcemanSK
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Posts: 1084
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Styles: Taekwondo Chung Do Kwan

PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 9:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A hypothetical situation I could picture. A 40 year student of a master who, while she used to live close to his master, moved to a small town in the middle of nowhere & runs a school under her master. After receiving 4th Dan, she doesn't test for 20 years, but continues to run her school. Her master, who knows the instructor's situation with the school, tells the instructor something like, "We're having a test at the HQ school in 9 months. Since it's been so long since you've tested. You will come and test at that time. You have students who are loyal enough to you that you need to be higher rank." Or some such thing.

I have a friend in my organization who came across a similar issue. He was 5th Dan & ran his own program at a rec center. The rec center closed & he went back to his home school in a neighboring town. His home school master had retired & had given the school over to a 4th Dan student to run. My friend, outranked the CI of the school he attended. My friend didn't mind & enjoyed teaching & learning at the school under his 4th Dan CI, who was also a friend. The 4th Dan had time in grade to test for 5th Dan, but didn't see the need. However, our grandmaster was concerned that the students would be confused by the arrangement. Our grandmaster told the 4th Dan that she needed to test at the next opportunity. She did so at grandmaster's request.

For context: In Kukki-TKD, one has to be 4th Dan to test one's own students & can test them to 3rd Dan. 5th Dan can test to 4th Dan, etc.
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sensei8
KF Sensei
KF Sensei

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 15712
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Styles: Shindokan Saitou-ryu [Shuri-te/Okinawa-te based]

PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 1:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

IcemanSK wrote:
A hypothetical situation I could picture. A 40 year student of a master who, while she used to live close to his master, moved to a small town in the middle of nowhere & runs a school under her master. After receiving 4th Dan, she doesn't test for 20 years, but continues to run her school. Her master, who knows the instructor's situation with the school, tells the instructor something like, "We're having a test at the HQ school in 9 months. Since it's been so long since you've tested. You will come and test at that time. You have students who are loyal enough to you that you need to be higher rank." Or some such thing.

I have a friend in my organization who came across a similar issue. He was 5th Dan & ran his own program at a rec center. The rec center closed & he went back to his home school in a neighboring town. His home school master had retired & had given the school over to a 4th Dan student to run. My friend, outranked the CI of the school he attended. My friend didn't mind & enjoyed teaching & learning at the school under his 4th Dan CI, who was also a friend. The 4th Dan had time in grade to test for 5th Dan, but didn't see the need. However, our grandmaster was concerned that the students would be confused by the arrangement. Our grandmaster told the 4th Dan that she needed to test at the next opportunity. She did so at grandmaster's request.

For context: In Kukki-TKD, one has to be 4th Dan to test one's own students & can test them to 3rd Dan. 5th Dan can test to 4th Dan, etc.

The exact thing happened to Fumio Demura. His Sensei told him that if he didn't test, he'd have students that outranked him. So after some prodding, Demura Sensei, against his own desires, finally gave in and tested...thusly...earned a much higher rank. Demura Sensei forever and a day was a Godan...until his Sensei urged.



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Hawkmoon
Pre-Black Belt
Pre-Black Belt

Joined: 17 Jun 2013
Posts: 891
Location: MK in the UK
Styles: Kyokushin

PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 4:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To seek glory to search it out.... really !
This is <insert martial art> not The X-Factor!

"I'm ready to grade now" no arrogance in that is there?

When you are told you are to grade, the person granting you that opportunity has seen something in you and has deemed you ready to represent the art going forward.
To demand it, to seek it out at every opportunity, reminds me of Donkey form Shrek!
"Pick me! pick me! pick me!"
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Spartacus Maximus
Black Belt
Black Belt

Joined: 01 Jun 2014
Posts: 1876

Styles: Shorin ryu

PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 6:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When it comes to whether or not one is ready to test, the last person to trust is oneself. Part of the skills an instructor has is knowing where and how to recognize students progress and the only way to do this accurately is years of training experience. This is the reason why a skilled and qualified instructor can evaluated a student better than the student him/her self.

In the end it is a question of character and self-confidence for the student, but generally if the instructor is convinced that the student is ready, the student is ready whether or not said student thinks so.
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