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DarthPenguin
Orange Belt
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Joined: 03 Dec 2021
Posts: 175
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Styles: Shotokan, Judo, BJJ

PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2022 3:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RW wrote:
as a grappling art, BJJ can get away with things that a striking art such as karate can't.

In BJJ you can spar and spar and spar as close as possible to a real "fight" (in which only grappling is allowed) and it's safe and there's less risk of injury. Imagine if karate had full contact sparring only... there would be a bunch of busted noses and split lips, not to mention black eyes.

You can judge grading in BJJ by how well students perform in "fights" (rolling). They do it every day. You'd need to have full contact fights every day in karate too to be able to judge skill. At that point, kata would fade away too, since there is no incentive to learn then, you might as well just become great at full contact sparring since that's all it takes to get a black belt.


This is a fair point tbh. You could start to add in a lot more protective equipment and restrictions to allow more contact sparring more regularly, but then would you be in essence changing the art.

Kyokushin does seem to spar a lot though and spar hard, so it does seem do-able. I've never personally tried Kyokushin though so can't speak from experience on the training
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Zaine
Black Belt
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Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 1952
Location: Dallas, TX
Styles: Matsumura-Seito, Shobayashi-Ryu, Shudokan, Long Fist, American Street Karate, Southern Mantis, HEMA

PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2022 9:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My first dojo did a lot of "full contact" sparring, which is to say at higher levels it very much resembled an MMA bout in rules. We were able to punch to faces, do takedowns/throws, go to the ground for locks, the whole 9. Even then, no one was throwing a punch to knock someone out. Strikes were often pulled so as to not cause injury (especially to the face, no one was ever knocked out and we were pretty good at hitting someone in the forehead instead of the nose). The only real "full-contact" sparring we did was during tests, when we had to showcase that we were able to do this in a "real" situation. EVEN THEN, no one got knocked out (though contusions and busted ribs weren't uncommon.

Kyokushin does do a lot of hard sparring, I've spent some time in Kyokushin dojos. They obviously don't go full out like we might see at competitions every time, but the hardcore dojos are intense. The amount of joint issues that I have seen with Kyokushin Karateka later in life does worry me a little, it seems an art prone to lasting injury. However, I don't have the numbers to back that up and I could just be only hearing about a loud minority. How many times have we heard of other Karateka that have lasting injuries because of their dedication? I've met a lot of older masters with joint replacements. It could just be due to our poor understanding of joint health and proper stretching techniques in the past.
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LionsDen
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Joined: 06 May 2022
Posts: 177


PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2022 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zaine wrote:
My first dojo did a lot of "full contact" sparring, which is to say at higher levels it very much resembled an MMA bout in rules. We were able to punch to faces, do takedowns/throws, go to the ground for locks, the whole 9. Even then, no one was throwing a punch to knock someone out. Strikes were often pulled so as to not cause injury (especially to the face, no one was ever knocked out and we were pretty good at hitting someone in the forehead instead of the nose). The only real "full-contact" sparring we did was during tests, when we had to showcase that we were able to do this in a "real" situation. EVEN THEN, no one got knocked out (though contusions and busted ribs weren't uncommon.

Kyokushin does do a lot of hard sparring, I've spent some time in Kyokushin dojos. They obviously don't go full out like we might see at competitions every time, but the hardcore dojos are intense. The amount of joint issues that I have seen with Kyokushin Karateka later in life does worry me a little, it seems an art prone to lasting injury. However, I don't have the numbers to back that up and I could just be only hearing about a loud minority. How many times have we heard of other Karateka that have lasting injuries because of their dedication? I've met a lot of older masters with joint replacements. It could just be due to our poor understanding of joint health and proper stretching techniques in the past.
tbh in non-KK i haven't met a single person who had joint issues beyond what would be expected for their age at worst, or people who had joint injuries from some other circumstance that could be aggravated by karate, but never someone who was 40, with the knees of a 60 year old for no apparent reason other than blaming karate.
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R5ky
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Joined: 27 Jun 2022
Posts: 43


PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2022 11:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess it wouldn't apply because they are both different kinds of styles in their own right.
Instructors analyze for even the tiniest advances in your game and will promote you based on that specific growth in JJ, which is similar to the game of chess with a limitless amount of techniques and problem-solving.
I can say with certainty that I received my most recent promotion because, while the teachers were watching all of us spar, I was able to display some defenses during a session that had begun to come naturally to me.

Karate has a standardized approach, emphasizes proper form (Kihon, Kata), and treats Kumite as Kumite.
During kumite, a senior white belt or brown belt may be very talented in kumite and is outworking black belts, but they won't advance until they demonstrate the other principles, such as the basics and kata (which is pre arranged).

merely apples and bananas, in my opinion.

Instead of conducting tests with a large panel every few months, I would be open to the idea of a head instructor simply advancing you when they feel you are ready.
the greatest person to know you is your instructor
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Zaine
Black Belt
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Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Posts: 1952
Location: Dallas, TX
Styles: Matsumura-Seito, Shobayashi-Ryu, Shudokan, Long Fist, American Street Karate, Southern Mantis, HEMA

PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2022 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's not an uncommon approach, especially in less formalized schools. There is a fairly large amount of stuff Traditional Karate does on the grounds of tradition alone. Some of these things are about respecting the history of the art, and some of the things boil down to "well, the Sensei who taught me this did it this way so that's how we're going to do it" even though the Sensei who taught them was 4' 10" and they are 6' 3". It's good to understand how people at different heights do kata so that it makes sense for them, and how a kata was originally taught, but if I'm teaching a class full of giants then I'm probably going to have them do less high blocks.

For me, testing is one of those traditions that I quite enjoy. It feels good to go through a gauntlet and emerge victorious. Even if you know the odds are stacked on your side. Even if you know the chances of you failing the test are slim to none. There's always that errant maybe that gets you. It feels good to win. My first Sensei would just test you when you were ready. Instead of a special day (aside from Shodan tests, which were scheduled for a special day), when you were ready you tested during normal class. Everyone would do the warm-ups, you would demonstrate your kata, go through some sparring rounds, and then at the end of class you would be awarded your new rank.
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LionsDen
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Joined: 06 May 2022
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2022 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

R5ky wrote:
I guess it wouldn't apply because they are both different kinds of styles in their own right.
Instructors analyze for even the tiniest advances in your game and will promote you based on that specific growth in JJ, which is similar to the game of chess with a limitless amount of techniques and problem-solving.
I can say with certainty that I received my most recent promotion because, while the teachers were watching all of us spar, I was able to display some defenses during a session that had begun to come naturally to me.

Karate has a standardized approach, emphasizes proper form (Kihon, Kata), and treats Kumite as Kumite.
During kumite, a senior white belt or brown belt may be very talented in kumite and is outworking black belts, but they won't advance until they demonstrate the other principles, such as the basics and kata (which is pre arranged).

merely apples and bananas, in my opinion.

Instead of conducting tests with a large panel every few months, I would be open to the idea of a head instructor simply advancing you when they feel you are ready.
the greatest person to know you is your instructor
your last two sentences there is exactly how BJJ promotions are conducted, so kinda contradicting yourself lol.
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Tyler
Yellow Belt
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Joined: 16 Mar 2022
Posts: 53
Location: Narita,Japan
Styles: Shorin-Ryu, Kobudo

PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2022 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LionsDen wrote:
R5ky wrote:
I guess it wouldn't apply because they are both different kinds of styles in their own right.
Instructors analyze for even the tiniest advances in your game and will promote you based on that specific growth in JJ, which is similar to the game of chess with a limitless amount of techniques and problem-solving.
I can say with certainty that I received my most recent promotion because, while the teachers were watching all of us spar, I was able to display some defenses during a session that had begun to come naturally to me.

Karate has a standardized approach, emphasizes proper form (Kihon, Kata), and treats Kumite as Kumite.
During kumite, a senior white belt or brown belt may be very talented in kumite and is outworking black belts, but they won't advance until they demonstrate the other principles, such as the basics and kata (which is pre arranged).

merely apples and bananas, in my opinion.

Instead of conducting tests with a large panel every few months, I would be open to the idea of a head instructor simply advancing you when they feel you are ready.
the greatest person to know you is your instructor
your last two sentences there is exactly how BJJ promotions are conducted, so kinda contradicting yourself lol.


indubitably
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R5ky
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Joined: 27 Jun 2022
Posts: 43


PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2022 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hehe, I know I misspoke, but what I meant to say is that you can be promoted at the instructor's discretion in between official belt promotions.
In addition, they (JJ) dont usually have the king's court table with the panel of 10-15 BB.
which I have nothing against because I have personally participated in panels for kyu evaluation (not Dan).

There are two key differences between the two arts that merit mentioning: In JJ, a brown belt can promote, and occasionally, depending on the situation, purple belts as well.

In contrast to Karate, only black belts can advance students (which typically takes the form of a panel) kyu/dan ranks.
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R5ky
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2022 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
your last two sentences there is exactly how BJJ promotions are conducted, so kinda contradicting yourself lol.


Technically speaking, you are mistaken because a SINGLE brown belt (not panel) can advance a student at any moment during class.
Although I would assert that some schools might administer tests, those I have ever attended did not.
Days of promotions are days of promotions.


Every Karate school administers kyu/dan exams for advancement.
Truthfully, I've never been to a school where the teacher simply gave a kid his subsequent rank during a regular lesson.

The last two sentences spoke to my willingness to see karate adopt that specific aspect of promotion.
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R5ky
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2022 11:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
You most likely are spot on in America as many Adults might not truly take it as seriously and kids are thrown in there from their parents,

But her in Japan, the Senseis are volunteers and there is a minimal fee. Unlike the West People in Japan Practice either cause they want to or for the spiritual,mental and physical aspect. The kids story is the same, they are usuay forced to!

I think Martial Arts in America is for the most part about profit.

Greed and lust never mix well!

In Japan most Martial arts Dojos are a passion and not a business!


In the situation you indicated, I would strongly disagree with your post's generalization of the majority of Westerners.


(non Japanese) Teachers volunteered their time in every Shoto school I trained at for the same reasons that you did (spiritual,mental and physical aspect).

There are non-profit organizations devoted to the tradition of shoto.
Whether it is JKA, SKA, ISKF, SKIF or another organization, they are supporters of the system.
The instructors I trained with were already well-off and dedicated to teaching Karate, some of whom prioritized it over their families, which I observed would lead to marital problems.

On the other hand..

There are Japanese senseis from JAPAN who would host seminars and demand a hefty fee merely to go over a single kata with an emphasis on form and minimal knowledge of bunkai or basic fundamentals.

Karate's "greed and lust" don't end at US soil, mate

Now, I'd suggest that the aforementioned is true for organizations with legitimate lineages.



There is "Bob Jacksons" Karate (a reference to Jim Carrey's Karate sketch on In Living Color), but those types don't speak for all western practitioners.



[/quote]Unlike the West People in Japan Practice either cause they want to or for the spiritual,mental and physical aspect[quote]

What else do you really believe the west uses karate for except what you mentioned?
simply to don a gi and smile at yourself in the mirror and say "hi-ya"?

They exercise for similar motives.


Last edited by R5ky on Thu Jul 07, 2022 4:34 am; edited 3 times in total
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